Hypnagogic/Hypnopompic Hallucinations -Or- Alien Abduction?, Sleep Studies Provide Scientific Support That "It Was All A Dream& Options

[LaJaDiSc]

The hypnagogic state is sometimes proposed as an explanation of experiences such as alien abduction, apparitions, or visions, also known as a trip or psychedelic experience.
During the hypnagogic state, an individual may appear to be fully awake, but has brain waves indicating that the individual is technically sleeping. Also, the individual may be completely aware of their state, which enables lucid dreamers to enter the dream state consciously directly from the waking state.(1)

A simplified but perhaps helpful way of characterizing these conditions might be to imagine someone standing at a window opposite a fireplace, looking out at a garden in the sunset. The person may be thoroughly absorbed by the view of the outside world and fail to visualize the interior of the room at all. As it becomes darker outside, images of the objects in the room behind the person are reflected dimly in the window glass. For a time, then, the viewer may see either the garden (if gazing into the distance) or the reflection of the room’s interior (when focusing on the glass). Night falls, but the fire still illuminates the room. The watcher now sees in the glass a reflection of the interior of the room, which appears to be outside the window. This illusion becomes dimmer as the fire dies down, and, finally, when it is dark both outside and within, nothing more is seen. If the fire flares up from time to time, the visions in the glass reappear.

Another analogy might be that dreams, like the stars, are shining all the time, even though the stars are not often seen in daytime. If, however, there is an eclipse of the sun, or if a viewer watches the sky after sunset or before sunrise, then the stars, like dreams, though often forgotten, may be seen.(2)

Auditory hallucinations can range from primitive noises such as bangs, whistles, claps, screams, ticks, and others to speech and music. Commonly people who have auditory hallucinations hear voices which utter short comprehensible phrases. Sometimes the person may recognize the voice as one of a family member or deceased friend and sometimes it may be the voice of a stranger or even God. The voices or sounds can be thought to originate from anywhere. The walls, the trees, a shoe are all possible origins of hallucinatory sounds. (3)

According to neuro-scientists Denis Pare and Rodolfo Llinas, the brains simultaneous 40 Hz neural oscillations, which are associated with consciousness, also occur during REM sleep. Given this, Pare and Llinas were led to the conclusion that the only difference between our dreaming and waking states is that in waking states, the closed system that generates oscillatory states is modulated by incoming stimuli from the outside world. In other words, what we call waking state is really an REM dream state, with a sensory topping. Or, we shouldn't speak of being either asleep or awake, but of sleep plus waking state. There's your supporting evidence.(4)

(1)http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Hypnagogia

(2) http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/...-hallucinations

(3) http://neurology.health-cares.net/auditory-hallucination.php

(4) http://www.excommunicate.net/hypnagogia

[daSkeptic]

The really sad thing is this material has been known for quite some time, just not by the general public.

[LaJaDiSc]

The really sad thing is this material has been known for quite some time, just not by the general public.

True. It's out there though for anyone to look up.

Right before I fell asleep, voices I never heard before, just faint enough to be coming from the next room. Saying things that sounded like what William S. Boroughs or a beat poet would write. 15 years later I just googled "hearing voices" and my answer was right there. Quite a relief, I didn't know what to think.

Now I can make it happen at will, although it almost always leads to sleep. I haven't "seen" things, aside from a few times, it's usually voices, sometimes music. The words are sometimes funny and the music is often intricate rock or jazz, I'm really OK with it.

(Edit correction:the proper key words to google are "auditory, hallucination". Aug. 27, 08)

[aJadeSky]

Hmm ok... I have read this stuff. I haven't slept much these past two days so perhaps my mind is not too with it and I might seem a little cranky even, but ahh... I like science. I dislike being told, not that I am saying anyone here is telling me ... just that I dislike people who think they know beyond doubt answers to stuff because some jar head got a workable theory that hasn't been proven wrong yet. I mean the big bang works for me, but if some where down the road they find more knowledge and a even better explanation... I won't be one of those people that swore that science proved it.
I do agree that sleep walking happens and could be a way to explain most happenings. Would seriously like to know others state of mind and alertness before hand to odd experiences and or drug usage or mental history of them and family. But ah we learn to interpret what we see around us. It is not the same as actually seeing everything around us. Who knows what state the brain can slip into to perhaps perceive some other input not just of the normal 5 senses?? Who is to say that getting input that way is any more or less accurate to our given reality?

Hubby has driven a car asleep and I know we can pick up stuff even when not sleep walking 'awake' Rem, to incorperate into our dreams as we dream. Isn't that the idea behind learning things in our sleep, from tapes and such?
Ever see a child sleep? I believe they are more often to have their eyes half open then adults simply because the brain is still needing to store enough data to incorperate real images in dreams. It looks to me like a camera taking pictures to process and use in dreams when I see a child sleeping with eyes open or partially open.

But what are Dreams exactly? Please don't tell me they are all just hallucinations. I mean what is the lucid dreaming then? Where people control the visions. Are not hallcuinations something Not controlled?

Nor that this proves beyond a doubt what everyone claims to of seen and heard is the odd dreaming 'awake' state of REM. It dosen't and is mainly an attempt to put rational ideas to odd occurances to make some feel safer or less confused about life.

The Bible says God talks to us in our dreams? So do other religions have this belief also I believe. Why? Where did this come from .. myth or fact either way , why was it added in? What experiences caused others to believe this enough to write about it?
Why was Daniel able to understand the dreams and warn the king of famine?
Maybe a higher part of our brain is at work or spirit even and dreams are the vessel to reach us, communicate?
So I don't care if they say it's all dreams... that dose not mean that it is nothing.

What are dreams?

[LaJaDiSc]

Hmm ok... I have read this stuff. I haven't slept much these past two days so perhaps my mind is not too with it and I might seem a little cranky even, but ahh... I like science. I dislike being told, not that I am saying anyone here is telling me ... just that I dislike people who think they know beyond doubt answers to stuff because some jar head got a workable theory that hasn't been proven wrong yet. I mean the big bang works for me, but if some where down the road they find more knowledge and a even better explanation... I won't be one of those people that swore that science proved it.
I do agree that sleep walking happens and could be a way to explain most happenings. Would seriously like to know others state of mind and alertness before hand to odd experiences and or drug usage or mental history of them and family. But ah we learn to interpret what we see around us. It is not the same as actually seeing everything around us. Who knows what state the brain can slip into to perhaps perceive some other input not just of the normal 5 senses?? Who is to say that getting input that way is any more or less accurate to our given reality?

Hubby has driven a car asleep and I know we can pick up stuff even when not sleep walking 'awake' Rem, to incorporate into our dreams as we dream. Isn't that the idea behind learning things in our sleep, from tapes and such?
Ever see a child sleep? I believe they are more often to have their eyes half open then adults simply because the brain is still needing to store enough data to incorporate real images in dreams. It looks to me like a camera taking pictures to process and use in dreams when I see a child sleeping with eyes open or partially open.

But what are Dreams exactly? Please don't tell me they are all just hallucinations. I mean what is the lucid dreaming then? Where people control the visions. Are not hallucinations something Not controlled?

Nor that this proves beyond a doubt what everyone claims to of seen and heard is the odd dreaming 'awake' state of REM. It doesn't and is mainly an attempt to put rational ideas to odd occurrences to make some feel safer or less confused about life.

The Bible says God talks to us in our dreams? So do other religions have this belief also I believe. Why? Where did this come from .. myth or fact either way , why was it added in? What experiences caused others to believe this enough to write about it?
Why was Daniel able to understand the dreams and warn the king of famine?
Maybe a higher part of our brain is at work or spirit even and dreams are the vessel to reach us, communicate?
So I don't care if they say it's all dreams... that dose not mean that it is nothing.

What are dreams?

(The following was copied and pasted from my post in :True Believer Or Skeptic?-a thread that, I assumed, referred to ghosts and UFOs)

"I can't say one way or another, it's a complex issue. The unique ways in which we express ourselves, most notably in the arts, reveals the intricacy of human perceptions. What I perceive, and then share through expression, is in turn perceived second hand. The sharing of supernatural experiences is at the mercy of an inadequate system of communication. How can you accurately describe something that doesn't fit into any known physical catagory? Our words are mere substitutes. Visual representations are subject to our perceptions. I can safely say I'm suspicious. What we perceive these things to be may turn out to be nowhere near the truth."

Some believe there is no truth, only perception. I don't see that as an absolute, but it can be applied to dreams. I think it's Jungian psychology that leans towards that view.

I've had many dreams of "space ships", seen at a distance, flying over my house as I lay in bed, or landing in front of my house where I could make out, through the translucent hull of the "ship", a humanoid figure watching me.

For me these dreams always have a real effect on my emotions. I interpret these images not as alien visitations, but some form of spiritual message. I see the ships as supernaturally organic, and not as a mode of intergalactic travel but inter-dimensional. That is how I interpret my dreams. I do not communicate with these creatures, I just have the occasional reminders of their presence.

I seek out wisdom in religion, knowledge in science and find comfort in the Holy Spirit. I don't believe science can give us all the answers. What I've learned from my faith, is to be respectful of different beliefs, defend your own, and at points of conflict, communicate, listen and use reason.

I started this thread hoping others would share personal experiences of hypnagogic or hypnopompic episodes.

I chose the skeptic forum as a neutral ground to maintain objectivity.

The last thing I want is to create a stumbling block.

I respect your faith and spirit.

Joy of life and love are to be honored.

[aJadeSky]

Oh no, no it's the scientists with one track minds who single onto an idea and then look for a proof to their theory that some times gets me a little irked. In my opinion even if they knew there was more than one outcome, or possibility and that they were ignoring a bigger picture or truth, or evidence, some of them for the sake of careers(or secrets) would keep to the tunnel vision.

I didn't mean to imply this is how you felt. I have read your posts, lol.
And if I felt that you were implying this as your belief that none of the sightings or odd things to occur were nothing but dreams then I would of said then that groups of people were dreaming together or hallucinating the same exact things at the same time or all were under some kind of brain washing experiment...

There are more than one type of reports, with multiple witness accounts of single events.

Sometime we should chat in pms about dreams and such ... but ask any here that I am very long winded, just to warn you in advance, lol. I think out loud, er or on paper I think ... it's the having someone else to bounce thoughts off of thing.
The extroverted tendancies.

[LaJaDiSc]

I would like to hear an explanation for mass sightings myself. Let me know if you got my message, Mrs Sky.

[SkeptiChick]

I would like to hear an explanation for mass sightings myself. Let me know if you got my message, Mrs Sky.

The simple explanation for "mass sightings" is "mass hysteria" -- a known and reproducible psychological phenomenon.. Another explanation is that people just act like they saw something because they want to "fit in" with the people who really do think they saw something. The other thing is that the mind is very VERY suggestible -- If I'm staring at the clouds, and I say to the person next to me "look! A bunny!" their mind will find a way to see a bunny, because thats what it expects to see.

[LaJaDiSc]

So it would follow that reports similar, but absent any physical evidence are "collective delusions". The implications are far reaching. Being a believer most of my life, I find taking the thought to its logical conclusion devastating. Comfort might be found in pursuing the answer to what we are left with in common as a species, when relieved of ancient superstitions.

[SkeptiChick]

So it would follow that reports similar, but absent any physical evidence are "collective delusions". The implications are far reaching. Being a believer most of my life, I find taking the thought to its logical conclusion devastating. Comfort might be found in pursuing the answer to what we are left with in common as a species, when relieved of ancient superstitions.

They could be. It's also possible that they are not. Being a true skeptic, I leave open the possibility of just about anything, as I don't see how anything can logically be fully proved or disproved with our current understanding of the world around us.

It's entirely possible that the paranormal does exist. I just find it more likely, given the evidence provided, that the majority of "experiences" people have are just something that they don't readily know how to explain, and their mind latches onto the first similar thing it can come up with -- i.e. superstitions and paranormal beliefs.

As an example: Right now I have a vase of dried flowers on my desk with a thick glass bottom. And, right now, it appears that something is moving inside that glass, glowing brighter, and then fading back. Nothing in the room is moving. Nothing outside my window is moving. Upon first glance, it might appear that there is a "spirit" or "ghost" inside the vase. Given nothing but the above description of the scene, someone might even accept that explanation as "real." The part that I left out is that across the room, the TV is on, and the show is switching back and forth from a brightly lit office scene to a dimly lit outdoors scene. All that's happening is that the bottom of the vase is reflecting the light from my television.

If I were someone who didn't understand how light can reflect off of, and refract through, glass objects, I might even continue to believe that the source of the "glowing moving object" inside my vase is supernatural in origin.

If I were a member of an isolated tribe of aboriginals in the middle of the amazon jungle, and had never seen a car before, I might think it was magic Same goes for cigarette lighters -- Imagine that, making fire appear out of nowhere, with just the flick of a finger!

Humans also tend to look for recognizable patterns in just about everything. That's why we see bunny shapes in clouds. That's also why we see faces in light reflections in pictures, and why we see people shaped shadows in dark rooms when its really just a lamp behind a chair with a blanket draped over the back. We try to make sense of the unfamiliar by applying to it the things we are familiar with.

None of that means that ghosts (or any other supernatural/paranormal thing) don't exist. It just means that there are more explanations that need to be disproved before you can rationally reach the conclusion that an occurrence is paranormal.

[LaJaDiSc]

What would scary late night campfire stories be like, if told by a group of strictly science minded folk? The greatest fear being: the rewriting of all scientific knowledge due to the discovery of a mind bogglingly confounding, and indisputable bit of empirical data? On second thought that would be pretty cool to see what they would come up with. It would be pure science fiction with not 1% of fantasy. Still, I like fantasy as well, the irrational is fun sometimes. When I was in the Navy, 10 years ago, seeing the clouds decorating the sky at sunset, while cruising in the middle of the Atlantic on my first visit to Europe, was just magical. (edit 11:44, Jan. 1st 2009: What was I thinking? New years resolution - Try to make more sense.)

[SkeptiChick]

What would scary late night campfire stories be like, if told by a group of strictly science minded folk? The greatest fear being: the rewriting of all scientific knowledge due to the discovery of a mind bogglingly confounding, and indisputable bit of empirical data? On second thought that would be pretty cool to see what they would come up with. It would be pure science fiction with not 1% of fantasy. Still, I like fantasy as well, the irrational is fun sometimes. When I was in the Navy, 10 years ago, seeing the clouds decorating the sky at sunset, while cruising in the middle of the Atlantic on my first visit to Europe, was just magical.

You know... That the scientifically minded are a bunch of stuffy old fogies is really a horrible stereotype.

My dad is an academic researcher. A very prominent one at that. He is extremely scientifically minded, even in his approach to every day life. But you know what? He told (and still tells) the absolute BEST bedtime stories, and scary stories scare him even more than the do me! The reason is very simple: In order to have a great scientific mind, you have to have an even better imagination. You have to be able to imagine all the different variables that could possibly affect what you're experimenting with, and you have to be able to imagine new ways to deal with a problem, and every possible explanation for what you're seeing...

So, I think late night campfire stories told by the scientifically minded would be even better than those told by your average superstitious person.

[A_BOY_AND_HIS_DO...]

OH COULD I TELL YOU PEOPLE A THING OR TWO

I DONT HAVE THE TIME RIGHT NOW AND WHEN I DO YOU HAVE TO LOOK BEYOND THE CAPS AND SEE A BRAIN AT WORK

[LaJaDiSc]

You know... That the scientifically minded are a bunch of stuffy old fogies is really a horrible stereotype.

My dad is an academic researcher. A very prominent one at that. He is extremely scientifically minded, even in his approach to every day life. But you know what? He told (and still tells) the absolute BEST bedtime stories, and scary stories scare him even more than the do me! The reason is very simple: In order to have a great scientific mind, you have to have an even better imagination. You have to be able to imagine all the different variables that could possibly affect what you're experimenting with, and you have to be able to imagine new ways to deal with a problem, and every possible explanation for what you're seeing...

So, I think late night campfire stories told by the scientifically minded would be even better than those told by your average superstitious person. :)

Yes I agree that is a bad steroetype. I"m sorry if what I said was taken that way. Your dad sounds really awesome.

[aJadeSky]

OH COULD I TELL YOU PEOPLE A THING OR TWO

I DONT HAVE THE TIME RIGHT NOW AND WHEN I DO YOU HAVE TO LOOK BEYOND THE CAPS AND SEE A BRAIN AT WORK

Good to see you again A Boy and His Dog... Look forward to reading your ghost stories.

[A_BOY_AND_HIS_DO...]

MY FIRST MEMORYS

ABOUT 1956 IM MOVED FROM MY CRIB TO AN ATTIC ROOM MAKING ROOM FOR THE SECOND BORN, I REMEMBER MY FIRST NIGHT ALONE WITH MY GOLDEN EYED TEDDY BEAR.

I REMEMBER LOOKING DOWN FROM THE SECOND ATTIC ROOM THREW A THERMAL GREAT AT THE DINING ROOM, I REMEMBER THE TOYS AND BOXES OF STUFF STORED IN THAT SECOND ATTIC ROOM.

I REMEMBER MY YOUNGER BROTHER MOVING UPSTAIRS TO MAKE ROOM FOR OUR NEXT BROTHER.

I AWOKE THERE WERE 4 OR 5 SMALL BEINGS STANDING AROUND ME

I LOOKED UP AND TO MY LEFT AND SAW THE FACE OF ONE OF THEM, I REMEMBER THINKING HOW STRANGE

I THOUGHT THOUS ARE EYES THATS A MOUTH HOW DIFFERENT THAY WHERE AND HOW PERFECT HOW BEAUTY FULL

I LOOKED DOWN PAST THE FOOT OF MY BED TO SEE MY PEACEFULLY SLEEPING YOUNGER BROTHER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ROOM

I LOOK UP AGAIN AT THAT ALIEN FACE AND THINK "OH BOY! LETS PLAY" I TRY TO SIT UP AND AS I GET TO MY ELBOWS HEAD AND SHOULDERS OFF THE BED THE SMALL BEINGS SCURRY AWAY

I SIT UP FEET ON THE FLOOR, THINKING "WAIT I WANT TO PLAY", IM NOW FROZEN AND CANT GIVE CHASE, ALL I COULD DO WAS WATCH THEM LINE UP AND BEGIN TO MARCH IN PLACE 3 STEPS THAN THAY MARCHED AWAY THREW THE OPEN DOOR THEN EXIT TO THE LEFT AND OUT THREW THE ROOF OF THE HOUSE.

I STAND AND FOLLOW AND MY VERY PREGNANT MOM COMES UP THE STARES AND ASKS ME WHAT ALL THE NOISE WAS

I TOLLED HER IT WAS THE MONSTERS, SHE SAID IT WAS A DREAM, BUT I ONLY MOVED MAYBE TEN STEPS IN PURSUIT AND THERE WHERE MORE THAN TEN STEPS UP THE STARES FOR MY MOM TO TRAVERSE SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK

I CALL THEM THE SOAP ALIENS

[SkeptiChick]

Yes I agree that is a bad steroetype. I"m sorry if what I said was taken that way. Your dad sounds really awesome.

Oh, I didn't take offense, no worries

I've been subjected (both voluntarily and involuntarily) to the research community for my entire life, and sometimes that stereotype does indeed fit.

And yeah, my dad is pretty awesome.

[A_BOY_AND_HIS_DO...]

ITS NOW SUMMERTIME WE NOW LIVE IN A NEW HOUSE MY DAD BUILT

ITS 1960 IM ABOUT 5 Y/O ME AND MY BROTHERS ARE AT THE NEIGHBORS PLAYING WITH 2 OF THE 9 KIDS

WE ARE AT THE END OF THE DRIVEWAY AND IM THE LEADER OF PLAY

GOOFING AROUND I LOOK TO MY LEFT TO A ONE ACRE FIELD OF TALL GRASS

I HEAR A STRONG MANS VOICE IN MY HEAD SAY "DONT GO DOWN THERE" SO I LEAD US ALL INTO THE FIELD

GRASS UP TO OUR CHESTS WE WADED THREW TO A CROP CIRCLE ABOUT 15' OR 20' AROUND

WE SPENT THE NEXT FEW WEEKS STEPPING DOWN MORE GRASS MAKING PATHS AND OTHER SHAPES IN THE FIELD

[LaJaDiSc]

MY FIRST MEMORYS

ABOUT 1956 IM MOVED FROM MY CRIB TO AN ATTIC ROOM MAKING ROOM FOR THE SECOND BORN, I REMEMBER MY FIRST NIGHT ALONE WITH MY GOLDEN EYED TEDDY BEAR.

I REMEMBER LOOKING DOWN FROM THE SECOND ATTIC ROOM THREW A THERMAL GREAT AT THE DINING ROOM, I REMEMBER THE TOYS AND BOXES OF STUFF STORED IN THAT SECOND ATTIC ROOM.

I REMEMBER MY YOUNGER BROTHER MOVING UPSTAIRS TO MAKE ROOM FOR OUR NEXT BROTHER.

I AWOKE THERE WERE 4 OR 5 SMALL BEINGS STANDING AROUND ME

I LOOKED UP AND TO MY LEFT AND SAW THE FACE OF ONE OF THEM, I REMEMBER THINKING HOW STRANGE

I THOUGHT THOUS ARE EYES THATS A MOUTH HOW DIFFERENT THAY WHERE AND HOW PERFECT HOW BEAUTY FULL

I LOOKED DOWN PAST THE FOOT OF MY BED TO SEE MY PEACEFULLY SLEEPING YOUNGER BROTHER ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ROOM

I LOOK UP AGAIN AT THAT ALIEN FACE AND THINK "OH BOY! LETS PLAY" I TRY TO SIT UP AND AS I GET TO MY ELBOWS HEAD AND SHOULDERS OFF THE BED THE SMALL BEINGS SCURRY AWAY

I SIT UP FEET ON THE FLOOR, THINKING "WAIT I WANT TO PLAY", IM NOW FROZEN AND CANT GIVE CHASE, ALL I COULD DO WAS WATCH THEM LINE UP AND BEGIN TO MARCH IN PLACE 3 STEPS THAN THAY MARCHED AWAY THREW THE OPEN DOOR THEN EXIT TO THE LEFT AND OUT THREW THE ROOF OF THE HOUSE.

I STAND AND FOLLOW AND MY VERY PREGNANT MOM COMES UP THE STARES AND ASKS ME WHAT ALL THE NOISE WAS

I TOLLED HER IT WAS THE MONSTERS, SHE SAID IT WAS A DREAM, BUT I ONLY MOVED MAYBE TEN STEPS IN PURSUIT AND THERE WHERE MORE THAN TEN STEPS UP THE STARES FOR MY MOM TO TRAVERSE SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK

I CALL THEM THE SOAP ALIENS

No matter how I look at it, the memory you describe is amazing. You must have been so young and everything was new. To see such a thing, whatever the explanation, well no wonder you save the memory to this day. Have you considered the possible meaning when taken as a waking dream? It does have a dreamlike quality to it, don't you think? You've given enough detail that I could hazard a guess as to some underlying meaning, but really I don't know you. I think you would see the truth about yourself best. In fact before someone else gives there opinion, I think you should give yours. If that seems like a cop-out, I will go first - if that's what you want.

[LaJaDiSc]

This is kind of off topic but shows how far you could delve into the subject of dreams: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6lBxtqOIiM