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Doctor Who Plot Holes


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#1 StillPeridotEyes

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 09:46 AM



I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I'm quite bored waiting for new episodes of Doctor Who to come around, so I thought it might be a bit of fun to have a little competition. I'm awarding two points and a banana daquiri to the individual who can come up with the best and most obscure plot hole, otherwise referred to as ADHPH (another Doctor Who Plot Hole, nod to Forever Knight).

I'll start us off with my own favourite: In Tooth and Claw Queen Elizabeth sustained a small wound from the werewolf. It supposedly caused a mutation in her DNA which affected her descendants. However, since all her children were already born (she was a widow when she met the Doctor) how on earth could this mutation have affected her descendants? How could this have happened? DNA is passed from parent to child at the moment of conception. Someone dropped the logic ball in this one.

Historicly it was the disease of hemophilia Queen Victoria's granddaughter Alexandra carried in her genes. Alexandra married Nicholas II who became the Czar of Russia. The disease of hemophilia contributed to the Russian revolution through the health problems of the Queen's great-grandson, Alexis. One can only assume that this was the genetic alteration to which the Doctor was referring. I'm relying on my fallible memory, so I could be incorrect in my recollection of how the Doctor referenced the Queen's change, so don't stake me on this point, please. He was indeed correct that there was no history of hemophilia in the family, and that it must have been a mutation.

Anyone else have one? Not a genetic mutation, ADWPH.












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#2 Ivriniel

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 09:58 AM

QUOTE (StillPeridotEyes @ Jun 22 2009, 10:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I'm quite bored waiting for new episodes of Doctor Who to come around, so I thought it might be a bit of fun to have a little competition. I'm awarding two points and a banana daquiri to the individual who can come up with the best and most obscure plot hole, otherwise referred to as ADHPH (another Doctor Who Plot Hole, nod to Forever Knight).

I'll start us off with my own favourite: In Tooth and Claw Queen Elizabeth sustained a small wound from the werewolf. It supposedly caused a mutation in her DNA which affected her descendants. However, since all her children were already born (she was a widow when she met the Doctor) how on earth could this mutation have affected her descendants? How could this have happened? DNA is passed from parent to child at the moment of conception. Someone dropped the logic ball in this one.




The Werewolf didn't actually bite her. If you watch the scene carefully, it never even got close enough to do so. The "The Royal Family are Werewolves" bit at the end is a joke.

In any case, Haemophila wasn't passed down the British line of the Royal family and went extinct in the other branches of Queen Victoria's family.



In order to have Haemophila, a man needs a defective gene on his X chromosome. A woman needs defective genes on both of her X chromosome.

Queen Victoria's father was not a Haemophiliac, and there was no history of it on her Mother's side. It has been suggested that Queen Victoria's father was not her real father, but male haemophiliacs rarely survived to adulthood in that period, and the odds that Queen Victoria's mother would happen to have an affair with one are incredibly small.
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#3 MockingbirdGirl

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 10:06 AM

QUOTE (StillPeridotEyes @ Jun 22 2009, 10:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I'm quite bored waiting for new episodes of Doctor Who to come around, so I thought it might be a bit of fun to have a little competition. I'm awarding two points and a banana daquiri to the individual who can come up with the best and most obscure plot hole, otherwise referred to as ADHPH (another Doctor Who Plot Hole, nod to Forever Knight).

Errr... since you have admitted only having watched the new series, it does not seem like you are particularly well-qualified to judge such a competition. No offense.


Edited by MockingbirdGirl, 22 June 2009 - 10:14 AM.


#4 StillPeridotEyes

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 10:20 AM

QUOTE (MockingbirdGirl @ Jun 22 2009, 10:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Errr... since you have admitted only having watched the new series, it does not seem like you are particularly well-qualified to judge such a competition.





None taken. It's true I'm a neophyte. I'd planned to rank plot holes in order of entertainment value. Did I mention I'm bored?

As far as the hemophilia goes, Alexis would have to have received one copy of the defective gene from his father and one from his mother to have the disease. So your theory, correct me if I'm wrong, is that Alexis was simply a mutant Romanov?


ps: hey, look, I only have 21 more posts than you do!




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#5 Ivriniel

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 10:24 AM

QUOTE (StillPeridotEyes @ Jun 22 2009, 11:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>


As far as the hemophilia goes, Alexis would have to have received one copy of the defective gene from his father and one from his mother to have the disease. So your theory, correct me if I'm wrong, is that Alexis was simply a mutant Romanov?





No, Alexis didn't get a haemophila gene from his father. Boys get a Y chromosome from their father, and the haemophilia gene is only on the X chromosome. He got the gene from his mother, who was a carrier. It's clearly illustrated on the chart I posted.

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#6 Kirri

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 10:56 AM

Boys who carry Haemophilia are affected, all boys.
Girls who carry Haemophilia are not affected unless they are Homozygous for it, unless both X chromosomes are affected, in which case they would die at puberty......
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#7 Ivriniel

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 10:59 AM

QUOTE (Kirri @ Jun 22 2009, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Boys who carry Haemophilia are affected, all boys.
Girls who carry Haemophilia are not affected unless they are Homozygous for it, unless both X chromosomes are affected, in which case they would die at puberty......


And for a girl to be a Haemophilac would require that her father be a Haemophiliac, and her mother be a carrier. Up until very recently, such a situation was pretty much impossible, as most boys with Haemophilia wouldn't survive to have children.


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#8 StillPeridotEyes

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 11:08 AM

QUOTE (Ivriniel @ Jun 22 2009, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No, Alexis didn't get a haemophila gene from his father. Boys get a Y chromosome from their father, and the haemophilia gene is only on the X chromosome. He got the gene from his mother, who was a carrier. It's clearly illustrated on the chart I posted.





I suppose it was more of a scratch than a bite in the series.


Still begs the question: do you think it was a spontaneous mutation in Alexandra, or her mother? (I did glance at your chart but didn't realize that it would expand until I saw it the second time.)


The only other explanation indeed is that her mother was unfaithful to her father. This did happen, you know. Adultery has been going on for a very long time. There is nothing new under the sun, so it's possible that it could have happened.





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#9 Ivriniel

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 11:14 AM



QUOTE (StillPeridotEyes @ Jun 22 2009, 12:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I suppose it was more of a scratch than a bite in the series.




Doesn't matter, as the wolf didn't get close enough to scratch her either.

QUOTE
Still begs the question: do you think it was a spontaneous mutation in Alexandra, or her mother? (I did glance at your chart but didn't realize that it would expand until I saw it the second time.)


The Spontaneous mutation was in either Victoria, or her father's sperm. Alexandra (Alix) got it from her mother, Alice, Queen Victoria's daughter.

QUOTE
The only other explanation indeed is that her mother was unfaithful to her father. This did happen, you know. There's nothing new under the sun.


But given the poor survival rate for Haemophiliacs in the 19th century this seems highly unlikely. Also, no one has been able to identify a haemophiliac that Queen Victoria's mother would have had contact with to have an affair with.
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#10 astoreri

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 11:15 AM

QUOTE (Ivriniel @ Jun 22 2009, 08:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The Werewolf didn't actually bite her. If you watch the scene carefully, it never even got close enough to do so. The "The Royal Family are Werewolves" bit at the end is a joke.


While it was meant to be a joke they did cover their bases by putting in the line about her children: 'maybe she gave them a quick nip'.

QUOTE (MockingbirdGirl @ Jun 22 2009, 09:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Errr... since you have admitted only having watched the new series, it does not seem like you are particularly well-qualified to judge such a competition. No offense.


Well its not like there is a shortage of plot holes in nuwho.

One the ones I've found really annoying is all the dimension cannon nonsense from Turn Left and stolen earth. Why did Mickey and Jackie have the buttons while Rose had to contact 'control' to ask for another jump? How was Rose able to know exactly where/when to appear to Donna in Turn Left? In SE Rose says that the dimension cannon all of the sudden started to work and she was wearing the same outfit the whole time in TL/TSE/JE implying that for her it was all happening in the same day. So how would she and Alt!TW have had enough time to figure out everything about Donna's alternate timeline???

Then there are Rose's appearances. The one in PIC was never explained. Was she there looking for the Doctor? If she was why was she just standing there? Or was she there looking for Donna in Turn Left but had arrived in the 'correct' timeline instead of the alternate timeline? And if she'd arrived in the 'correct' timeline with Donna why wouldn't she have taken advantage of it and given Donna the badwolf message then?? Then there are her appearances on the screens which don't make any sense what so ever. Why would Rose be standing in front of a camera or a monitor shouting Doctor??? How would the 'dimension' cannon of been able to project her image onto a screen inside the TARDIS or onto a TV monitor on the bus on Midnight????

Another plot hole that has always annoyed me is in Blink when Sally takes the key to the TARDIS from the Angels. How did the Angels get the key in the first place??


#11 Ivriniel

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 11:23 AM

QUOTE (astoreri @ Jun 22 2009, 12:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
While it was meant to be a joke they did cover their bases by putting in the line about her children: 'maybe she gave them a quick nip'.


Which still doesn't work because Prince Leopold spent his childhood as a semi-invalid as a result of his haemophilia.
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#12 betawho

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 11:55 AM

QUOTE (astoreri @ Jun 22 2009, 12:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Another plot hole that has always annoyed me is in Blink when Sally takes the key to the TARDIS from the Angels. How did the Angels get the key in the first place??


Hah! I didn't even notice that one. laugh.gif Maybe they moved so fast they were able to pick the Doctor's pocket before throwing him back into the past.

Another plothole: In Age of Steel, why did the Cybermen turn and walk away when the Doctor buzzed the sonic screwdriver while he was hiding behind those cans? Wouldn't they have looked behind the cans to see what was causing the noise? They were standing right there.

And if the Doctor can control Cybermen with the sonic screwdriver, what was all the panic about?!



#13 Noneofyourbusiness

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 12:06 PM

Why couldn't the Doctor take the alternates to his world in Inferno, yet Mickey and Ricky could coexist fine?

#14 Ivriniel

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 12:13 PM

QUOTE (Noneofyourbusiness @ Jun 22 2009, 01:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Why couldn't the Doctor take the alternates to his world in Inferno, yet Mickey and Ricky could coexist fine?


Because they were EeeeeEeeeevvviiiilllllll Fascists? wink.gif


Or maybe the Time Lords wouldn't allow it?
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#15 StillPeridotEyes

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 12:42 PM

QUOTE (astoreri @ Jun 22 2009, 11:15 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
While it was meant to be a joke they did cover their bases by putting in the line about her children: 'maybe she gave them a quick nip'.


This line didn't register with me at the time. Now it resonates, though. She would have had to go about nipping them for something like that to have happened, surely.

Years ago when I had Dish Network I discovered that what I saw was further edited for time to add extra commercials for (believe it or not) Dish Network! I complained about this extensively and when it did not good I voted with my feet and changed to Direct Network. Now I'm beginning to wonder if Direct TV is further truncating the episodes I'm watching because some lines aren't getting through. I'll have to test this theory carefully. Dish was really bad, cutting scenes in the middle and editing some series until the episodes didn't even make sense.


QUOTE
Well its not like there is a shortage of plot holes in nuwho.....
One the ones I've found really annoying is all the dimension cannon nonsense from Turn Left and stolen earth. Why did Mickey and Jackie have the buttons while Rose had to contact 'control' to ask for another jump?


They had a limited number of jump buttons and the buttons had to recharge between uses so they weren't easy to use. That was my interpretation of this point.

QUOTE
How was Rose able to know exactly where/when to appear to Donna in Turn Left? In SE Rose says that the dimension cannon all of the sudden started to work and she was wearing the same outfit the whole time in TL/TSE/JE implying that for her it was all happening in the same day. So how would she and Alt!TW have had enough time to figure out everything about Donna's alternate timeline???


Colour me dense, but Alt!TW? Please do explain.

QUOTE
Then there are Rose's appearances. The one in PIC was never explained. Was she there looking for the Doctor? If she was why was she just standing there? Or was she there looking for Donna in Turn Left but had arrived in the 'correct' timeline instead of the alternate timeline? And if she'd arrived in the 'correct' timeline with Donna why wouldn't she have taken advantage of it and given Donna the badwolf message then?? Then there are her appearances on the screens which don't make any sense what so ever. Why would Rose be standing in front of a camera or a monitor shouting Doctor??? How would the 'dimension' cannon of been able to project her image onto a screen inside the TARDIS or onto a TV monitor on the bus on Midnight????


In PIC Rose's search target wasn't clear. Perhaps at that time whatever was happening hadn't happened as yet to put the alternates on notice that Alt!Donna might turn right instead of left, and she was simply reconnoitering/having a look round? Or she was trying to find the right time and place to put Donna right, I mean left, as it were. This is a tricky business, we don't have the tenses to discuss this, do we? What I'm trying to say is that I think Rose had to get to the time when there was an extra Donna who could throw herself in front of the truck and die.

Regarding Rose on the monitor, I wondered about that myself. What could she convey by speaking to him without sound? I'm sure he can lipread, many people can if the person speaking goes slowly enough. In that timeline he was already past the spider mother in RB, so what could she possibly tell him that would be helpful, other than the fact of the disappearing planets?


QUOTE
Another plot hole that has always annoyed me is in Blink when Sally takes the key to the TARDIS from the Angels. How did the Angels get the key in the first place??



I always assumed they snuck it somehow. They got close enough to the Doctor and Martha to take their lives. What's always bothered me terribly is that they're there in that basement quantum locked only by a 60 watt light bulb. When the power flickers, or there's an outage or a brownout, they'll be freed! Even if there's never a power interruption when the bulb burns out they'll be free again, won't they?

I smell a return of the Weeping Angels, or whatever it's called when the bad guy ladies come back.

Blink is my favourite non Doctor-centric episode. Well, so far. It was quite poetic.

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#16 Doctor10

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 12:46 PM

QUOTE (Ivriniel @ Jun 22 2009, 12:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Or maybe the Time Lords wouldn't allow it?

Yeah probably, the Time Lords are always mucking about preventing this, sealing this off, making sure this straightens back out. Too many rules, the Time Lords, makes one want to run away...do his own thing.
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#17 oldskool138

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 12:47 PM

QUOTE (StillPeridotEyes @ Jun 22 2009, 12:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Colour me dense, but Alt!TW? Please do explain.


Took me a second to get it too. It stands for the Alternate world Torchwood.
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#18 LittleLostDalek

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 01:26 PM

Here's something I noticed. I'm not sure if it's a plot hole or just an inconsistency.

In Resurrection of the Daleks the Doctor threatens to kill Davros. By threaten to kill, I mean picks up a gun and points it at his head. Then he also shoots a Dalek mutant (out of it's casing) dead with a gun. It might just be me, but this seems like very un-Doctorish behavior given his aversion to guns. They don't even really bother to give an explanation for his change of heart, so I don't know if it counts as a plot hole. It might just be bad writing.
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#19 Ivriniel

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 01:36 PM

QUOTE (StillPeridotEyes @ Jun 22 2009, 01:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
[font="Tahoma"][size=3][color="#2E8B57"]This line didn't register with me at the time. Now it resonates, though. She would have had to go about nipping them for something like that to have happened, surely.


Except it didn't. Because the Werewolf never got anywhere near her.

Sorry, it's just a little pet peeve of mine. smile.gif

QUOTE
Colour me dense, but Alt!TW? Please do explain.


Alt!TW = Alternate Torchwood. The Torchwood from Pete's World.


QUOTE
In PIC Rose's search target wasn't clear. Perhaps at that time whatever was happening hadn't happened as yet to put the alternates on notice that Alt!Donna might turn right instead of left, and she was simply reconnoitering/having a look round? Or she was trying to find the right time and place to put Donna right, I mean left, as it were. This is a tricky business, we don't have the tenses to discuss this, do we? What I'm trying to say is that I think Rose had to get to the time when there was an extra Donna who could throw herself in front of the truck and die.


Rose clearly indicates in JE that the whole purpose for her travelling to our Universe was to get back with the Doctor. That's probably why she's so useless once she gets there.

I'm not entirely convinced that the Rose in TL is the same Rose in SE.

QUOTE
Regarding Rose on the monitor, I wondered about that myself. What could she convey by speaking to him without sound? I'm sure he can lipread, many people can if the person speaking goes slowly enough. In that timeline he was already past the spider mother in RB, so what could she possibly tell him that would be helpful, other than the fact of the disappearing planets?


She wasn't trying to be helpful, she was trying to get back to the Doctor. In any case, I suppose she might have told him about the coming Darkness.

QUOTE
I always assumed they snuck it somehow. They got close enough to the Doctor and Martha to take their lives. What's always bothered me terribly is that they're there in that basement quantum locked only by a 60 watt light bulb. When the power flickers, or there's an outage or a brownout, they'll be freed! Even if there's never a power interruption when the bulb burns out they'll be free again, won't they?


Maybe they can see in the dark?

Personally, I think Torchwood or UNIT came along and carted them off to a wharehouse somewhere. I imagine they store the Weeping Angels next to the scarecrow Son-of-Mine. wink.gif
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#20 astoreri

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Posted 22 June 2009 - 02:07 PM

QUOTE (Ivriniel @ Jun 22 2009, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Rose clearly indicates in JE that the whole purpose for her travelling to our Universe was to get back with the Doctor. That's probably why she's so useless once she gets there.


That sooo bugs me!! Rose didn't grow as a character at all from the time we saw her in doomsday. In fact I think she even regressed.

QUOTE (Ivriniel @ Jun 22 2009, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not entirely convinced that the Rose in TL is the same Rose in SE.


There is just so little explanation around Rose in series 4 it really, really, really bugs me.

QUOTE (Ivriniel @ Jun 22 2009, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
She wasn't trying to be helpful, she was trying to get back to the Doctor. In any case, I suppose she might have told him about the coming Darkness.


The thing that bugs me the most about Rose on the monitors is that I know the real reason she was there: to get the fans all excited about Billie Piper's return. And RTD seems to think that is enough and it doesn't need any explanation at all. I mean he didn't even try to explain those appearances. They were just there. Argh!!! Such a difference from series 3, where when you go back and watch again and every single saxon reference makes sense. When you re-watch smith and jones and see the 'vote Saxon' behind Martha's head you get a tingle up the spine moment: the master is there, on earth and the Doctor has no idea!!! When you re-watch PIC and see Rose fading away you just end up rolling your eyes.
(sorry, I know I'm going off on a bit of a Rose rant but CBC is re-running series 4 and PIC was on last night so all my annoyance over Rose in series 4 is coming back full force)

QUOTE (Ivriniel @ Jun 22 2009, 12:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Personally, I think Torchwood or UNIT came along and carted them off to a wharehouse somewhere. I imagine they store the Weeping Angels next to the scarecrow Son-of-Mine. wink.gif


I always figured that the Doctor would come back for them once he got his TARDIS back. Not sure what he would have done with them but I can't see him leaving them there for someone to stumble across.




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