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WAS CAPRICA A SUCCESSFUL SERIES?


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#1 WayneHurlburt

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 11:05 PM

Do you Think the Caprica Series Itself was the Problem, or is it Bad Programming by Syfy Management, that Dooms or Succeeds a Series

Definitely not the best news, as I for one really liked the show. Sure it had a slow start, but in reality, it does take a little finesse to take a great series like Battlestar Galactica and create a series that explains its beginnings. It's not like this could be done in 4-5 episodes, properly, especially when you want to create a series with it.There is a lot of changes that would need to be overcome, in order to take the consciousness of the 'V' world and transform this into the 'Cylon' bodies. On top of that, we're not just talking about doing this with only one consciousness, it would require a build up of many, to form the amount that has been used in the original Battlestar Galactica. How was this done, where did they come form, what was the process and how did they all come to gather together to believe that this should be done?

All these points need to be explained through properly and sorry to say it just doesn't play well with straight out action packed genre. Like I said before, it takes finesse along with a decent story build up. The real problem here isn't that the show doesn't contain what it takes to become a great series, it's that it is being compared to Battlestar Galactica, which had 4.5 seasons to build upon.

If the re-imaged series had been done as a prequel to the first, original Battlestar Galactica, the scrutiny of the show would have been ten-fold to what it did go through when it first started. Yet the series was great, even greater than the first or second season would have expected. Yes, there needs to be some scrutiny involved to keep it aligned with the quaility and information known from what makes the 'Cylon' what they are, but let it evolve to point that this can happen.

From the very first episode, Caprica had been scrutinized by the Battlestar Galactica fan genre. What did they expect? That the show would immediately start out with what the webisode series of William Adama first discovering the location of the secret lab, of the 'Cylons' and getting a glimpse into what they were experimenting on. That just wouldn't make sense. The story would need to evolve from a much earlier stage to really give a grasp of just what happened in the Cylon's themselves. From being just ordinary machines, doing the will of their creators to actually become self aware and developing a willful drive to become in control of their own destiny.

All this takes time and to have a series like Caprica, which really has the cast and storyline that can evolve, as it has already done so far, to be shut down before it can even begin to demonstrate what it can actually become, is sad.

Caprica also faced problems, by only allowing a few episodes to be shown at a time and drawn out over the course of almost to two years, just to air 13 episodes. That is just plain out bad programming and any new series that is to be drawn out in this way will also be destined to fail as well. You need to keep the story fresh and steady, to allow it to evolve in peoples minds. By only visualizing a few episodes here and there, with 6+ months in between airings newer material just isn't the way to introduce a new series. Take a look at any series using this format and see their ratings. The same is also happening to them as well.

Play out a season, as a season, and let the series have a chance to really take off, not as a fill in show to be watched every so often, when the network feels like airing an episode. If aired as a fill in that's all it will ever be, is a fill in and no one will take it serious enough to become a real series. That is why the ratings dropped(if they really did), not because the series is a bad series, but because it is being projected as one.Who can really get involved into watching a series that only plays once and a while, not many. The way Caprica has been executed and aired, has been bad advertising(so to speak), this is not a great show, so we will only air it in spurts. This just puts out a negative message to the viewers in general. Poor marketing isn't a reason to cancel a product. When a product is poorly marketed, you fire the marketing manager and replace him or go somewhere else to someone who knows how to do it right.

Well, even with the poor market plan behind Caprica, it still managed to capture a decent amount of viewers, now that should say something for the show itself. Imagine if it actually had been marketed right....gee. Maybe more people would actually have become interested in the show as well.

I like Syfy, but I think they really made a wrong turn here. Don't cancel shows for bad marketing gimmicks, get rid of the bad marketing gimmicks and give the shows that have fallen under this faulty process a chance to shine and show what they really can become.

They say, don't worry we have another prequel coming(Blood and Chrome)....gee, that makes everything better. Now that there has already been a great storyline setup, for a prequel, but has been decided to scrap it, how well do they think a second attempt will be. Now everyone will have to re-adapt to a whole new storyline, that maybe end up worse than the already great storyline Caprica has setup. Better yet, wait another prequel was just found, and maybe that one is even better, so let's scrap this newer prequel(Blood and Chrome) and really mess with the viewers head and introduce(for the third time), another Battlestar Galactica prequel series. When will it end? You started out with one prequel, that had a great storyline, stick with it...Gee.

Syfy is like straw blowing in the wind, changing everything on a whim. First thing they need to do is get rid of this strategy of only showing episodes to a series(especially new ones), longer than one month at a time, then break for 6-8 months before continuing newer episodes. If they think that the actually series is the rating problem, then Syfy is already doomed for an innevidable failure. It is their whole programming layout or strategy that is dropping the ratings, not the shows. The quicker they learn this the better for all involved.




#2 soundping

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 11:45 PM

The syfy management has a problem with science fiction as a format. I suspect given the opportunity management would change the syfy name to something more generic and drop science fiction all together.

Caprica never had a chance to grow and science fiction isn't like action type shows with instant gratification. Blood & Chrome WILL suffer the same fate of "premature cancellation".

#3 ThPrimes

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 11:59 PM

Was? Because I haven't seen the full season, I don't know yet.

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#4 JustSaying

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 03:03 PM

Do you Think the Caprica Series Itself was the Problem, or is it Bad Programming by Syfy Management, that Dooms or Succeeds a Series

The answer is the latter. Another mismanaged show courtesy of Syfy. This should be no surprise. October was a horrible month for them in programming. Case in point, the wrestling show NXT that use to appear on Tuesdays. They dropped that show just when season 3 began. I hear it still airs on tv in Canada and good for them. But it's the way it was dropped. It's like they didn't know what to do with it until the very last minute. Just for the sake of introducing Smackdown on Friday nights.

That brings me to my next issue - the Friday night lineup. What went wrong there? Suddenly Friday nights were no longer sci-fi nights. It became the night of wrestling. Strange considering that Tuesdays, from what I heard, were bringing in decent rating for them with NXT wrestling. You know, the show that introduced the Nexus as the next "big thing" in WWE. In any case, they did continue to show Sanctuary on Friday nights at the 10pm time slot. And after awhile, they decided to show encore episodes of Caprica at 11pm Friday nights. I found that out by accident. I was flipping the channel a few weeks ago and saw Caprica on at 11pm. That also made me wonder why Syfy didn't advertise encore episodes on Friday.

Back to the Tuesday lineup. Now, I know Syfy has a habit of showing mini-marathons throughout the week, but it shouldn't be to the detriment of newer shows. As much as I like Star Trek NG, they could have gave that show a break. They could have shown encore episodes of the previous week in the 7-8pm time slot. Then show the new episodes in the 9-10 time slot. But they chose not to. They also could have shown repeat episodes of Caprica instead of canceling it outright and replacing it with Star Trek (at least for the time being until January). Again, they chose not to. They chose the safe (and cowards') way out and canceled it altogether. And to make matters worse, they gave the perception that the show was doing so good that they were introducing BG: Blood and Chrome. In reality, Blood and Chrome is the replacement for Caprica, and in all likelihood, that show will also be aired on Tuesdays with the same 10pm time slot. Although, Syfy is welcomed to prove me wrong on that part.

But what's the worse instance of mismanaging Caprica? As you mentioned, the show was drawn out over the past 2 years. The pilot aired last year, and then one hell of a hiatus afterwards. At the very least, it could have been aired as a mini-series last year like they did with Galactica on NBC. Again, another idea that management chose not to do.

But let's say that last year's difficult premiere had to do with the economy. Fine, that's understandable. So what about this year? It can't still be the economy. According to the experts, the recession is officially over (another load of ***** that I don't believe). After all, this year we had the 2010 Winter Olympics. That should have brought in some revenue - Right? However, the Winter Olympics did affect scheduling for about 2 weeks.

So what happened? My guess, it was the endless hiatus coupled with scheduling conflicts and the inability to settle on a good day and time slot. Tuesday nights at 10pm just didn't work. They realized it and tried for Friday nights. They just didn't get the word out that they were doing an additional weekday airing. So they thought online broadcasting would help. I guess that didn't help either. In the end, it was the mismanagement of the series.

#5 OdinsRevenge

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 05:30 PM

I have to agree with the bad managing aspect on Caprica's demise. Also 'JustSaying' , had some very good points, as well. People have to know when a show is on, if they expect people to watch it. Between the airing gaps and the juggling around of time/day slots, is just bad management tactics, unless that was their plan all along....hmmmm, makes you wonder.

Syfy is really going downhill, lately. Especially letting another country air the remaining 5 episodes, while shutting out the American viewers, what management tactics does this serve? Other than alienating their own viewers, the rights they should have, before any other country does. Bet this helps Syfy's viewer ratings.

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#6 MockingbirdGirl

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 05:34 PM

I have to agree with the bad managing aspect on Caprica's demise. Also 'JustSaying' , had some very good points, as well. People have to know when a show is on, if they expect people to watch it. Between the airing gaps and the juggling around of time/day slots, is just bad management tactics, unless that was their plan all along....hmmmm, makes you wonder.

Except, of course, that ratings weren't exactly stellar even before the hiatus. I don't think it ever pulled in more than 1.6 million viewers. :(

#7 JustSaying

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 10:20 PM

Except, of course, that ratings weren't exactly stellar even before the hiatus. I don't think it ever pulled in more than 1.6 million viewers. :(


That's true. I took a quick look at Wikipedia (I know it's not always reliable). It said the ratings for season 1 were above 1 million while season 1.5 were below 1 million. The only except was the episode after the Winter Olympics, but that one was still close to 1 million. Moving the show to Saturday or even Sunday would have been better than Tuesday night.

Edit: I had a second thought. I looked at Wiki again and did a search on Stargate Universe. The ratings for that show for this season is just as bad. The first season averaged about 1.5 million. This season is averaging 1 million. My guess, the Tuesday time slot isn't working. And yet, they only canceled Caprica. Strange...


#8 IwasaSCIFIviewer

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 02:06 AM

The syfy management has a problem with science fiction as a format. I suspect given the opportunity management would change the syfy name to something more generic and drop science fiction all together.

Caprica never had a chance to grow and science fiction isn't like action type shows with instant gratification. Blood & Chrome WILL suffer the same fate of "premature cancellation".


You did notice the already genericised (I probably made up that word...) Syfy name. I do remember an idyllic time when the channel went by SciFi, and had a majority of shows that truly fell into that genre. Sorry, but I do not include reality shows as scifi; they're stil reality shows no matter how good they are (...if they are). At this point, however, I have found myself watching only two shows on Syfy: Caprica and SGU. I used to watch a couple of the other Stargate shows...until they began showing them so often that I had no idea when the new ones were on; then Caprica and SGU went the other way. Oh well, my total regular viewing time just dropped by 50%...good job!

Anyway, as to the second point, you're right. I don't know how most of you feel, but I'm wary of getting interested in ANY new shows from Syfy for fear of ending up with just another unfinished series. I also like to read a whole book, not just the first couple chapters...

#9 SunshineAlien

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 05:59 PM

Except, of course, that ratings weren't exactly stellar even before the hiatus. I don't think it ever pulled in more than 1.6 million viewers. :(


That's correct. I looked it up.

BSG was pulling in 1.7 to 1.8 million viewers same day at its bottom through Season 4. So that means that on Caprica's best day, it never equaled BSG's worst day, which was financially borderline to begin with. The reason BSG ended in 4 seasons is because Ron didn't want to roll the dice on being canceled at end of a Season 4 handing off to a Season 5 with ratings of 1.6 - 1.8 million. So it's no surprise Caprica got canceled for doing a lot worse than that.

Caprica Season 1 did a nose dive from 1.6 million to 1.2 million in two weeks, then just oscillated around that number. The average for Season 1 was 1.2 million. And while the story may have been picking up momentum with the end of Season 1.0, the ratings weren't.

Season 1.5 was oscillating around 800,000. C'est la vie.

Which is just a long winded way of saying maybe you can complain about the soundness of SyFy's airing decision, but that shouldn't translate into this idea that SyFy betrayed the show. As I read it, SyFy badly wanted this show to succeed. It just didn't, from a financial point of view. Artistic, is of course, another question.

#10 dkerin

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 06:31 PM

Now I realize that this is the Caprica forum page, and thus it has a lot of fans who are upset and ends up with a lot of people blaming the network. Was it stupid for the network to split the show and did it hurt it, yes! However is that the whole reason for Caprica's demise? No. In the long run it was the fault of the show runners/writers/producers. When you get a chance to create a show and get it on air, and then you have to keep saying to people that after the first ten episodes it really picks up and gets exciting, then you've done something wrong. Just like how everyone said with every new Star Trek series that you have to give them 2 years to find their legs. Really, after working in so many series, why would you drag out the first half of your new series at such a snail's pace? I was not a big fan of nu-BSG, but I had an interest in watching this show. And this show lost me half way through the first season, and that had nothing to do with Syfy.

When making a show you cannot plod through the first half and then wonder why the audience is leaving. For the larger viewers (and not the fans who obviously love the show) it was a boring waste of time without any characters who you actually wanted to watch. When 1.5 started I did watch the first two episodes On-Demand after being told this is when the action starts. Thank God I watched On-Demand because I was able to fast forward through the dull story that passed before my eyes. When it was pulled I was not surprised, and I did not blame Syfy. I blame the creative team.

Now all the fans of the show here will not like this and I understand. You love the show and there must be some other person to blame for the death of this wonderful show. And that is yours to go on pushing. In my opinion the creative staff of the show was handed an opportunity to really do something, and they squandered their opportunity. Was it arrogance that they knew better? That they could do no wrong (creatively)? Were they just idiots out of touch with what an audience wants? Or was everything right and Syfy screwed it all up? (However that would not explain the decline in viewers during 1.0) All I'd say is for the next show, don't spend the first half of the season working your way up to something exciting (and then have it not be exciting). Just go ahead and start with something exciting!

Just an alternate opinion. And an honest reason as to why this viewer left.
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#11 JustSaying

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 09:47 PM

Now I realize that this is the Caprica forum page, and thus it has a lot of fans who are upset and ends up with a lot of people blaming the network. Was it stupid for the network to split the show and did it hurt it, yes! However is that the whole reason for Caprica's demise? No. In the long run it was the fault of the show runners/writers/producers. When you get a chance to create a show and get it on air, and then you have to keep saying to people that after the first ten episodes it really picks up and gets exciting, then you've done something wrong. Just like how everyone said with every new Star Trek series that you have to give them 2 years to find their legs. Really, after working in so many series, why would you drag out the first half of your new series at such a snail's pace? I was not a big fan of nu-BSG, but I had an interest in watching this show. And this show lost me half way through the first season, and that had nothing to do with Syfy.

When making a show you cannot plod through the first half and then wonder why the audience is leaving. For the larger viewers (and not the fans who obviously love the show) it was a boring waste of time without any characters who you actually wanted to watch. When 1.5 started I did watch the first two episodes On-Demand after being told this is when the action starts. Thank God I watched On-Demand because I was able to fast forward through the dull story that passed before my eyes. When it was pulled I was not surprised, and I did not blame Syfy. I blame the creative team.

Now all the fans of the show here will not like this and I understand. You love the show and there must be some other person to blame for the death of this wonderful show. And that is yours to go on pushing. In my opinion the creative staff of the show was handed an opportunity to really do something, and they squandered their opportunity. Was it arrogance that they knew better? That they could do no wrong (creatively)? Were they just idiots out of touch with what an audience wants? Or was everything right and Syfy screwed it all up? (However that would not explain the decline in viewers during 1.0) All I'd say is for the next show, don't spend the first half of the season working your way up to something exciting (and then have it not be exciting). Just go ahead and start with something exciting!

Just an alternate opinion. And an honest reason as to why this viewer left.


I respect that this is your opinion because I have seen similar posts stating the same thing - it was boring or hard to understand or too liberal or too religious. But to be honest, I thought the show was doing a good job. I didn't have difficulties understanding it. So I have to ask, 'What is it about this show that made it boring'? I get that had a slower pace, but I disagree with it being boring.

#12 RollingPaper

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 09:52 PM

I blame craft services, they didn't have any encheladas and beens.

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#13 YNotaZebra

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 11:19 PM

I respect that this is your opinion because I have seen similar posts stating the same thing - it was boring or hard to understand or too liberal or too religious. But to be honest, I thought the show was doing a good job. I didn't have difficulties understanding it. So I have to ask, 'What is it about this show that made it boring'? I get that had a slower pace, but I disagree with it being boring.


I'll take a shot at that.

Some people find it slow, but plotwise, I think the first season is a misfire. We know they did retooling around the episode at the break. But what was that retooling? It seems like it was neutering plots from the first half of the season.

Think about it. Zoe in the robot: what did that really affect? Could we have gotten to Zoe in the virtual world without even having Zoe in the robot? I think so.

Daniel loses his company--what did that really affect? Not much. He's back with Adama and the mob who he was with in the beginning. Could we have gotten to Daniel and the mob in his company without ever even meeting Vergis? I think so.

Daniel can't make a robot for the military without the Zoe chip. But then Vergis is just churning out perfectly serviceable robots without the slightest angst or problem. Did we need the whole dilemma of Zoe in the chip related to making robots? Apparently not. Could Zoe be an avatar in V-world ready to be downloaded into robots without ever having been involved in the robot-making plot? Apparently so.

Could Amanda be where she is now without all that emoting over and over again. I think so.

Could Lacy be where she is now (on Gemanon being trained) without ever having done the whole Keon and Zoe robot thing? I think so. Was Barnabus actually necessary at all to get where we are with Clarice? Not really.

Looking back, too much of the first season simply isn't relevant to what's happening in Season 1.5. It was a lot of diversion if one wants to be kind, and simply padding if one doesn't. That's where a lot of people will say its boring. Emotion and character building, whether well done or not, ultimately are kind of boring if the things they're associated with aren't moving the plot forward.

I get the feeling the Caprica team simply took renewal for granted. Which is strange, because BSG provided ample warning. It's ratings fell off dramatically, and, as noted above, the reason it was ended in Season 4 is because they couldn't get a commitment in advance from SyFy for Season 4 and Season 5. They knew BSG had a fairly small audience at the end, they knew they had alienated some portion of that audience, and so you'd think the response would be to come out of the gate with Caprica tight and exciting. Instead, they meandered through a bunch of stuff that they then tried to dismantle at a break neck pace in Season 1.5.

Caprica has good moments. The plot, though, simply wasn't properly thought out. And, dare I say it, people complained about that on the back half of another show we all know (and loved to varying degrees). Whether you agree or not, "been there, done that" will get people to tune out pretty fast.

#14 LeGila

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 11:26 PM

So I have to ask, 'What is it about this show that made it boring'? I get that had a slower pace, but I disagree with it being boring.


Hard to follow, boring characters.....but ask the question; "What made the original Star Trek so successful? Answer: The relationship and chemistry between the characters. With Caprica everyone hated everyone else so there was no chemistry with anyone.

#15 WayneHurlburt

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 12:31 AM

I'll take a shot at that.

Some people find it slow, but plotwise, I think the first season is a misfire. We know they did retooling around the episode at the break. But what was that retooling? It seems like it was neutering plots from the first half of the season.

Think about it. Zoe in the robot: what did that really affect? Could we have gotten to Zoe in the virtual world without even having Zoe in the robot? I think so.

Daniel loses his company--what did that really affect? Not much. He's back with Adama and the mob who he was with in the beginning. Could we have gotten to Daniel and the mob in his company without ever even meeting Vergis? I think so.

Daniel can't make a robot for the military without the Zoe chip. But then Vergis is just churning out perfectly serviceable robots without the slightest angst or problem. Did we need the whole dilemma of Zoe in the chip related to making robots? Apparently not. Could Zoe be an avatar in V-world ready to be downloaded into robots without ever having been involved in the robot-making plot? Apparently so.

Could Amanda be where she is now without all that emoting over and over again. I think so.

Could Lacy be where she is now (on Gemanon being trained) without ever having done the whole Keon and Zoe robot thing? I think so. Was Barnabus actually necessary at all to get where we are with Clarice? Not really.

Looking back, too much of the first season simply isn't relevant to what's happening in Season 1.5. It was a lot of diversion if one wants to be kind, and simply padding if one doesn't. That's where a lot of people will say its boring. Emotion and character building, whether well done or not, ultimately are kind of boring if the things they're associated with aren't moving the plot forward.

I get the feeling the Caprica team simply took renewal for granted. Which is strange, because BSG provided ample warning. It's ratings fell off dramatically, and, as noted above, the reason it was ended in Season 4 is because they couldn't get a commitment in advance from SyFy for Season 4 and Season 5. They knew BSG had a fairly small audience at the end, they knew they had alienated some portion of that audience, and so you'd think the response would be to come out of the gate with Caprica tight and exciting. Instead, they meandered through a bunch of stuff that they then tried to dismantle at a break neck pace in Season 1.5.

Caprica has good moments. The plot, though, simply wasn't properly thought out. And, dare I say it, people complained about that on the back half of another show we all know (and loved to varying degrees). Whether you agree or not, "been there, done that" will get people to tune out pretty fast.


All of this is very interesting, sort of like re-writing a novel and telling the author that they didn't need to set up the background upon which the story is based. Or that wait, it didn't happen that way, it happened this way way. By setting up these individual scenarios is what the author wanted to happen. It showed that it happened in a definite way, which is called being very particular so people would know what exactly happened to get to the point that each area had gotten too. Sure they could have just came out and started at these points, but that wouldn't be the story behind it.

Caprica is suppose to depict how the Clyons became what they were, being created by man, developing self awareness and finally turning on their creators to find their own way without humans. If we were to follow your example, for instance, we know this so why not just jump ahead and go straight to the battle between Cylon and human and save all this unnessassary information, since we can get from point 'A' the creation of the Cylons, to point 'B' the battle between the Cylons and humans. Just jump right in the battle sequences...lol.

Well that is a whole different story and actually that is what you would call Blood and Chrome. I for one would really like to know every detail about what was involved in creating the Cylons, why did they develop the attitude they did, why did they come to believe that there was only one God and that this God was the one and only God, how was this software developed that allowed them to be able to grow and become self aware, how did they develop so many separate consciousnesses to be placed into the Cylon bodies, how exactly was this accomplished, what was the struggles it took to accomplish this the list goes on. It is like reading a good book, the book really defines these areas.

The people that didn't like the show wanted quick satisfaction and jump right into the action of the battle. Well this show is great in the way that it actually thought about the people that wanted to know all the details behind what made BSG so great, what really started everything, not just another war/battle/action series.

I believe the show would and was getting to some of the best parts of the series, but I still strongly believe that setting the background behind everything was a great idea as it actually made sure that questions would be answered correctly and not guess work as to how something came to be from point 'A' to point 'B', not just starting at point 'B'.

Also season 1.0 was strung out as well it did not play all 10 episodes for a full season, which is what one of my complaints were. they played about 4-5 episodes then broke away for a couple months before continuing the rest of the episodes. That is bad planning. Syfy needs to start actually playing out a season as a season, not drawing out the episodes they way they do on selected shows. This type of tactic just doesn't work and also people get confused when the series is actually starting up with newer episodes and tend to miss them because they also do a bad job in publicizing when show will air as well and leave it up to the internet or word of mouth.




#16 JustSaying

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 12:47 AM

LeGilia - that's an interesting observation that there was no chemistry between the characters. But that's sort of the reason why I liked it. With so much distrust and animosity, I was fascinated to see how they would all turn on each other. For example:

- Daniel and Joseph were friends. Then they turned on each other.
- Daniel and Amanda were grieving together. Then she tried to commit suicide.
- Amanda and Clarice were okay. Now Amanda is spying on her.

And so on and so on... I was interested to see how it would all play out.

YNotaZebra - I admit, there was a misfire in season 1. I'm not sure if I would call it a diversion though. I got to rethink how it could have played out differently.

-Think about it. Zoe in the robot: what did that really affect? Could we have gotten to Zoe in the virtual world without even having Zoe in the robot? I think so.
Zoe-A in the robot threw me off. I think the effect was to distract Daniel long enough so that Vergis could take over the company. I didn't even know that Zoe had 2 copies of Zoe-A. What bothers me more is that Clarice seems to know more about Zoe-A than anyone else.

-Daniel loses his company--what did that really affect? Not much. He's back with Adama and the mob who he was with in the beginning. Could we have gotten to Daniel and the mob in his company without ever even meeting Vergis? I think so.
I'm not sure by this. Daniel losing his company allowed for the completion of the Cylons. That's something Daniel wasn't able to do.

-Daniel can't make a robot for the military without the Zoe chip. But then Vergis is just churning out perfectly serviceable robots without the slightest angst or problem. Did we need the whole dilemma of Zoe in the chip related to making robots? Apparently not. Could Zoe be an avatar in V-world ready to be downloaded into robots without ever having been involved in the robot-making plot? Apparently so.
That's an interesting point. Apparently the Zoe chip that Daniel stole from Vergis was the prototype chip. The chip didn't work properly, but Daniel didn't know it was just the prototype. My guess is that's why he had difficulty in replicating the chip. As for Vergis, he was able to complete the Cylon production because he wasn't using the prototype Zoe chip. He was using the final version of the chip.

-Could Amanda be where she is now without all that emoting over and over again. I think so.
Good point. I got tired of that after awhile. But maybe she's still grieving. I don't know.

-Could Lacy be where she is now (on Gemanon being trained) without ever having done the whole Keon and Zoe robot thing? I think so. Was Barnabus actually necessary at all to get where we are with Clarice? Not really.
I don't think Lacy was interested in going to Gemenon. She didn't want to go on the shuttle that exploded (the one that killed Zoe). She only wanted to go because Zoe-A was trying to figure out what the original Zoe was planning. As for Barnabus, I don't know. Maybe Clarice would have become a cutthroat without him.

A Big Thanks for the responses. It was something to think about.

#17 JustSaying

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 01:01 AM

Looking back, too much of the first season simply isn't relevant to what's happening in Season 1.5. It was a lot of diversion if one wants to be kind, and simply padding if one doesn't. That's where a lot of people will say its boring. Emotion and character building, whether well done or not, ultimately are kind of boring if the things they're associated with aren't moving the plot forward.


One other thing, I thought the character building was well done. Although, I agree with the emotional aspect of this kind of bother me after awhile. There was just too much grieving for Zoe and Tamara. I didn't even get to see Tamara-A develop in V-world. One moment she was a scared girl. The next, she was a bona fide gangster. I also didn't see how Zoe-A escaped her robot body and went back to V-world. But I still wasn't bored.

#18 WayneHurlburt

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 01:12 AM

Hard to follow, boring characters.....but ask the question; "What made the original Star Trek so successful? Answer: The relationship and chemistry between the characters. With Caprica everyone hated everyone else so there was no chemistry with anyone.


I don't think that you actually took the time to watch the episodes in sequence or were too busy talking with friends and missed half of what you were actually watching...lol. All of the characters played their own part and became tied together in the story as whole, while defining their own situation as well. Zoe and her friends of the STO showed what started the series off, Zoe's family, her father and mother's situation is crucial for one to show the effects of her death on them and two her father is the one head of making the Cylons,

Then you have Clarice and her background which is what eventually leads to how the STO is really involved and what process it took to get her becoming as high up in the organization as she does. Joseph Adama's live shows his involvement as well as what he went through over his wife's and daughter's death, which in turn effects not only that his daughter becomes involved in the 'V' world and probably helps create the Cylon consciousnesses with Zoe, but the effects that all this has on William Adama in how he grows up with the influences of his uncle Sam.

Sam actually shows him the rough side of life, which in reality is probably why he becomes such good leader and risk taker later on in life as a Viper Pilot and eventially Admiral of his own fleet. Sam also aids in introducing the mob's influence in how the Cylons are built and influences on Daniel and his vision of what he wants and what he can actually do with the mob in control(so to speak).

Then you have Lacy, Zoe's friend starting out just trying to help finish what Zoe started with her avatar and eventually becoming deeply involved with STO and coming out of her shyness into a warrior for STO.

Vergis played his own part which is how Daniel was forced to use the mob, not only to first gain access to chip he needed for the Cylon creation, but also to regain his company back, which inturn is how the mob actually gets to be in control of the creation of the Cylons as well.

In almost every way, each and every character plays his/her own part in the process the show as well as the interactions they do effect everyone else in some way or another. All of which plays into how the Cylons came about with their own consciousnesses, who was involved in the process, what influences they each had in the story as a whole. Every character is is tied together at some point or another and done well.

You really have to not be watching the show or missing episodes to get confused on these issues (no offense, but I see no confusion or that the characters are not intertwined with each other).

One last thing, about Star Trek NG, re- watch some of the first episodes it took a while before the show really felt right with the character interactions. Also with all Star Trek series all the main characters are confined to one ship. Caprica there are multiple planets involved with 12 colonies. Kinda hard to have everyone have the same views and same goals and get along like a bowl of cherries, when multiple cultures are involved as well. Does everyone here on earth get along like a bowl of cherries? I don't think so and we're only one planet...lol. You need to have realism.




#19 YNotaZebra

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 02:14 AM

All of this is very interesting, sort of like re-writing a novel and telling the author that they didn't need to set up the background upon which the story is based. Or that wait, it didn't happen that way, it happened this way way. By setting up these individual scenarios is what the author wanted to happen. It showed that it happened in a definite way, which is called being very particular so people would know what exactly happened to get to the point that each area had gotten too. Sure they could have just came out and started at these points, but that wouldn't be the story behind it.


That's a straw man. I never said they didn't need background. I said it appears that, as the story is actually being told, they don't need some of the background presented, as demonstrated by the fact that it is either being quickly dispensed with or doesn't actually synch up with the direction they're now going.

Further, I believe people tell authors to change that sort of stuff all the time. I believe they're called editors and agents. And it's hard to actually read about the retooling and avoid the observation that they pivoted precisely because it wasn't perceived to be working so well. Remember, the retooling took place before the show ever aired and saw its ratings.

Caprica is suppose to depict how the Clyons became what they were, being created by man, developing self awareness and finally turning on their creators to find their own way without humans. If we were to follow your example, for instance, we know this so why not just jump ahead and go straight to the battle between Cylon and human and save all this unnessassary information, since we can get from point 'A' the creation of the Cylons, to point 'B' the battle between the Cylons and humans. Just jump right in the battle sequences...lol.


At least try to tell us something we don't already know. It may surprise you, but I don't think the fact that Caprica is supposed to depict how the Cylons became what they are eluded anyone.

The people that didn't like the show wanted quick satisfaction and jump right into the action of the battle. Well this show is great in the way that it actually thought about the people that wanted to know all the details behind what made BSG so great, what really started everything, not just another war/battle/action series.


I realize you're annoyed that a show you liked was cancelled, but that's quite arrogant. You don't know why people didn't like it, the fact that so few did watch it points to problems. Further, nowhere did I even remotely imply that I wanted just another war/battle/action series. I simply pointed out that the way they chose to lay out their story wasted a lot of time it's now clear they didn't have to waste. One could have shortened Season 1 significantly and propelled the plot with lots of dramatic tension without a single Cylon blowing anyone away. I wish they had done so. Then the show might have survived.

#20 WayneHurlburt

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 02:25 AM

I'll take a shot at that.

Some people find it slow, but plotwise, I think the first season is a misfire. We know they did retooling around the episode at the break. But what was that retooling? It seems like it was neutering plots from the first half of the season.

Think about it. Zoe in the robot: what did that really affect? Could we have gotten to Zoe in the virtual world without even having Zoe in the robot? I think so.


Here's is another point of not really paying attention to whole idea behind different parts of a show and just assuming that your view would be justified, instead of what an author of story has in mind.

Zoe was not only placed into the robot as a means of being transported to the 'V' world. If you follow the story like you should, she was already in the 'V' world before the robot. It was her father who took her out of the 'V' world and placed her in the robot. This shows what Daniel was trying to attempt, which is actually create a robot with more of a conscious level, as well as bring what he thought to be the closest thing of his daughter there was left into the real world.

Zoe getting back into the 'V' world was not what Daniel wanted. So basically, there was a purpose for this, even though Daniel initially thought he lost the whole program on the first failure. When Daniel comes to believe that Zoe has been in the robot all along brings another aspect into the story as well. Zoe begins to develop more of her attitude with her fathers prodding and temptations to get her to show her trueself in the robot, which also plays part in developing her dislikes and gains more anger emotions because of this.

Also while in the robot was able to develop more betrayal form her attempts of getting Lacy to transport her to Gemenon, and lacy failing to do this. Since all these emotions that develop early in the show just adds to why these same emotions get transfered to the Cylons themselves. This in effect can be another knotch into why the Cylon attitude towards humans develop.

In addition the time that Zoe was in robot also alllows her know of what the robots capabilities are like as well as how it can interact with the 'V' world, which will come in handy at the time when she and Tammara are able to start transferring consciousnesses into the Cylons at a later time.

So by doing this, the show can conclude that this is the time that Zoe can look back upon to gain the knowledge needed to complete the task of transferring consciousness to robot.

There are a lot of these little things that really make the story full, if you actually take the time to understand and just enjoy them instead of a constant looking for flaws or I wouldn't have done it that way attitude. If you can think ahead far enough there are probably areas you can see that even some of these other spots in the show that seem like they can be done without might actually make more sense when something in future episodes is introduced. Everything can have meanings , why pick them all apart.

You can do this to almost any show or movie and eventually you can gut a 2 hour movie down to 10 minutes or a tv series down to 5 minutes etc...







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