78 replies to this topic

[CylonRomeo]

the main question to me: did the Colonials deserve their fate? We had long, sometimes heated and overall inconclusive discussions with DaruMozu and other people about this subject. I am still not convinced that creation of the cylons was so terrible act... But anyway, i would be happy to discuss it again if there are interested people.

When I first think, WHY is their creation terrible? Why would it be? I never understood that and I felt Adama had the most coherent view on that because he actually asked the question which meant, he did THINK to ask it. Whereas, Roslin didn't ask that, she just threw them out the airlock. More props to the symbolism in the show creation because, I think this version of BSG makes a contrast with procreation, and the concept that "parental guidance" or lack thereof cannot be ignored without consequence. Maybe it's because Adama had children and Roslin did not.

If you saw The Animatrix, the "Renaissance" episodes are obviously a big influence here. Where, the created machine is just a sentient being and then, it was abused and retaliated. The comparison you made to slavery is good. And how can we not then ask about Cavil's logic and "the centurion side of the family" and the fact that he still wants justice?

He doesn't accept the god, therefore, the justics is according to his own reasoning. If I had to make a statement, I would say it was immoral of him to frak with his "siblings" and indoctrinate them. He wasn't just a bitter hag to himself about what happened, he BECAME the "devil" figure, and I think that was hurriedly created in season 2 as a setup for the myth later. But still, to me, it represents how IF act according to your own morality, and not the morality of a larger group, it can have consequences if you are not "perfect".

I will suppose that being "perfect" is not at all what Tory spoke about - even though she was the one to pass the idea to Baltar!

For the sake of the mythos of the show, being "perfect" is what SD6 said it was - your life played in harmony with god's plan. Cavil was not in harmony, and wrought destruction. But did Baltar bring destruction as well? However un-planned in his conscious thought as opposed to Cavil?

I think there are 2 flawed creatures (I'm saying this to represent human and cylon for your "responsibility" question. Cavil and Baltar, for example. What is their difference? Baltar changed his mind. Cavil did not. This brings me way back to the concepts of the "fiery furnace of refinement" where the dross is burned off and you remove the IMPERFECTIONS. Then, you end up with a "perfect" thing. PURE.

Baltar went through that process and was "redeemed" literally and figuratively. I think on some level, the rebel cylons did as well, because they changed their minds. Repent = Change of Mind. So, some of the cylons survived and others did not.

I think this might addresss the "responsibility" issue. You have 2 peoples warring on each other, both could die. But both could also live. Or, one could overcome the other. Pieces of both survived, and they became one united thing. I like that the hybrid child was the major theme from the beginning, because it shows coherence. For as much sh!t as the creators get for their "failings" or whatever, at least they had the general concept worked out from beginning to end.

[CylonRomeo]

I wish for more people to come and discuss this subject matter, I was gone for a while from the forum, so it might have been stomped to death in my absence, however to me this stuff is the Stuff of Legend, the myth behind the story is always for me way more interesting. I especially enjoy when a show or movie can create a veneer of something that can be enjoyed on the surface but then if you start digging, there's a lot more to uncover.

But speaking of Red Dress 6, I contradicted myself. I said she was perfect because she was following god's plan, then I said she was imperfect because she manipulated Baltar and did things we out here agree might be amoral or immoral.

It got me to thinking that maybe this god itself is amoral. I mean REALLY, it would make sense. WHICH morality is the god? Christian? Muslim? Or code of conduct or whatever, I LIKE the show left that to the imagination. Because more people can relate and PROJECT (ahem) onto it their own beliefs. There are certain moralities portrayed in Galactica but they tried hard to blur it which I liked.

Getting back to 6, ok fine, I say she was an emmisary from the god. she had a mission to herd Baltar in certain directions. I do agree, however, with Tangra that in the beginning of the show it was ambiguous, she seemed like a cylon. I really do get that and agree. ULTIMATELY, it turned out she wasn't. But in season 1 (just trying to compare what I just said) you have things like Leoben "maybe last time I was the captor and you were the prisoner" and he introduces the cyclicality of the whole thing.

I say this because, Red Dress 6 might have been a cylon. But maybe millions of years ago. I think the Kara transformation thing was there to help the viewer understand better wtf are these imaginary beings. Because she was a real person, she died, yet there she is. I like to think of it as somehow, or in some way, Caprica 6 and Baltar "ascended" or "raised up" their existence and became the beings we saw in secret. I do not believe RD6 was, herself, god manifested in that form. I don't think anyone could conclude that based on the show. So, she's a messenger. Ok

Then we have messengers visiting OTHER messengers (Kara's father/dead Kara) so there is something larger going on. I do not think RD6 and SpiritBaltar (lol) are exclusive questions. The leoben person that helped Kara die, who wasn't actually leoben, Elosha chastising Roslin. There's a lot going on.

So, if you look at it in that context, "the god" is intervening on a very intimate level, through key people via messengers.

So, IS the messenger perfect? I really don't know how to answer that. Is she in harmony with god's plan? I REALLYTHINK SO. Tangra, you took issue with her threatening Baltar and you were like "wouldn't the god just fire her" but if these messengers are given free reign to carry out the god's work, who's to say they are NOT perfect?

god's work = perfect.

It doesn't sound right, but Tangra your issue seemed to be it was at odds with our "traditional" sensibilities out here in the real world. But really? In the monotheistic religions, it is more than very clear the god is both good and evil. A lot of people do not want to hear that, but those same people say the bible and/or q'ran is their foundation, so they should stop rejecting what's in it.

Job. Judas. D'jinn. Satan. Nothing more need be said. The polytheists, I think, were (when that was a new thing) trying to break down these elements into individual deities to make sense of the complex nature of WHAT IS GOD DOING. And eventually, it became that silly thing of white robes and people throwing lightning. I don't believe it was oiriginally that way.

Polytheism exists today probably the most largely in Hinduism, which is probably what gave birth to the geco-roman gods anyway. MORALITY tends to get lost in a polytheistic realm because you have too much ambiguity. Human nature will always try to find a way to sneak around being moral. At least, that's what I think. So, now this pendulum starts to emerge between the comings and goings of monotheism and polytheism. Dueling back and forth to supply balance.

The polytheists get out of line, so the monotheists have to return. The monotheists become too rigid, so it swings back to polytheism. I think that is part of the cycle portrayed in Galacica. RD6 said "there's only room in people's heart for one. YOU or the Old Gods. WHICH WILL IT BE?". Then, he sort of rebukes Lily for having the asclepius talisman or whatever.

The question is, IS this "one god" against polytheism? I DON'T KNOW. She was always saying "god doesn't take sides" and maybe BOTH traditions are part of "the god"s plan.

[Tangra]

Just real quick and my immediate reaction, if you think about it, RD6 was always talking about GODS PLAN and like "except his love as I have" and all this... and if the god is to remain still more detached, then it would almost make sense to me to send the intermediary ---- one who is more in touch with the god's vision and plan, but STILL a being who is flawed. RD6 was not "perfect" yet, we might be misunderstanding perfection. We might say: "the cyclical cataclycm is wrong, so wtf god are you doing/not doing about it"? However, if the god is remaining detached, and the intermediaries come to "guide along" LIFE through the cataclysm, then it would make sense RD6 would do immoral (in our code) things to get it to work out according to the god's plan.

I think there was a big and important reveal of the mythology through Tory's character, because she was sort of "perverting" this CODE you speak of. Her whole "if you become one with the god, it means you are perfect". In a way, she was right according to how the show portrayed it, but that is NOT our reality out here, maybe, in the real world. And I'm not sure how to take it since that concept "we are perfect" seemed to be the crowning and final marker of the One True God message. I can only say, I think maybe it depends on YOUR OWN morality and how you view that. Because Baltar, on the one hand, used the "we are perfect" message to understand that he should not feel guilty for making the choices he made because HE WAS NOW A DIFFERENT PERSON. I see much of a Christian PAUL in that repentence and maybe a Buddha that has moved on from things it no longer sees as productive. WHERE THE THE CONTRARY, all Tory is doing is using the dogma to cover her tracks. Then, when she gets found out in the end, she receives a "just" punishment for it.

I just think if you look closely, RD6 got off Baltar's @ss once he started "following god's plan" and her coercion and under-handedness toward him and manipulation slowed up remarkably. At the end, when her "assignment" maybe had been achieved through him, she's just there hanging out and watching him instead of constantly maneuvering him into things. Perhaps the god of BSG is more like the god of Job in the Tenach, where coercion and manipulation IS ACTUALLY more if the god's domain than we (you and I) would like to believe out here in the real world. Yet, using these external (external to the god) forces to accomplish those messy and perhaps ill-conceived(?) things.

Roslin's character toward the end was "the end justifies the means" and according to what I'm saying, she was more like "the god" even though she didn't believe in it. I like to think she came to accept "the god" concept toward the end even if she didn't actually say it. Because she WAS "the god" in the fleet and she was acting just like the god in the way she was running things. "Throw a baby out an airlock". Destroy the Olympic Carrier. Ruling by "fiat" as Zarek said because she believed she knew best and would "no longer indulge 12 perpetually unhappy people" of the quorum. And to Lee "as long as I am here, the safety of the fleet is NOT SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT".

I want to comment on creation of the cylons, but later.

I agree with almost everything in this post. But still, i think most of it is focusing on details. Here in my country we have a saying which roughly translates like "you can't see the wood because of the trees"
In our case the "wood" is the destruction of 12 planets. Billions of people died and entire flourishing civilization was wiped out. The big question is who is to blame for this disaster? If gods and angels exist they could either:
A) Intervene and prevent it. It didn't happen (and there would be no BSG in this case since it would be no story to tell)
or
B ) Let it happen. This could be further divided into:
B1) Gods were following a non-intervention code. Something like "it is not our business". Which does not explain RD6 presence, Kara dieing/resurrecting and so on. Basically B1 is incorrect because gods did intervene all the time. Which leads us to:
B2) Gods let it happen because that was what they wanted. They wanted those 12 planets destroyed. I think by all possible moral standards this is called a genocide and it is totally unacceptable. You cant kill billions of people and say you are doing this because you are so powerful and you know better what is good for them. RD6 was speaking about God's love all the time while the same God was the mastermind of the destruction of entire human race. I find it extremely cynical. This interpretation of morality is too broad for my taste and makes the whole discussion pointless, IMO.

[CylonRomeo]

B2) Gods let it happen because that was what they wanted. They wanted those 12 planets destroyed. I think by all possible moral standards this is called a genocide and it is totally unacceptable. You cant kill billions of people and say you are doing this because you are so powerful and you know better what is good for them. RD6 was speaking about God's love all the time while the same God was the mastermind of the destruction of entire human race. I find it extremely cynical. This interpretation of morality is too broad for my taste and makes the whole discussion pointless, IMO.

This is a most common interpretation, and I think there are some "trees" you might be overlooking.

While I do not directly disagree with the sentiment - there is no proof either way - I do not even know if I agree with it. I think saying "it is a possibility" is a scientific way of approaching it. But asking such questions based off a Friday night science fiction show speaks volumes of the show's character.

I just don't know if it has to be so stark. Not "one or the other". Why can't there be a level of intervention? If I take your reasoning and go with it, then there are angels all over the place governing everything that happens. If you ever saw The Matrix Reloaded, this is the conversation Neo had with the Oracle. She talks about "programs designed to govern the wind and the birds" and even "programs designed to govern other programs."

When does it end? Is there a middle? The Great Cycle of Time is something I believe is MOST ancient and almost inherently built into human civilization in one form or another. I don't know why cycles happen. I do not know why a lioness has to give birth in order for there to keep being lions. I don't know why there is dung coming through a digestive tract which then fertilizes the ground. Or why a tree grows large, seeds other sapplings, then eventually falls down and is replaced.

Why is there not the same tree existing for billions of years? Or the same animal with no need for procreation or why there is food only to be expelled from the body after the nutrients used?

I think the show was acknowledging these kinds of cycles, and that "the god" is aware of these cycles and their need to exist. At the same time, we do not know if "the god" of Battlestar Galactica is this trafitional "god" that "maker of heaven and earth" or whatever. I think I tend to lean toward the concept of "ascended beings" because this means "the god" is not omnipotent at all... that it is perhaps some being that watches over us and has decided HOW IT CHOOSES to intervene because it has a much greater scope of vision than we have.

Baltar and 6 walking down the street are talking about the whole thing like it was a day at work - billions of years passing, that might be like us going outside to prune the tomato branch or picking fruit off a tree. Maybe the tree is having this same conversation being like "wtf, the god just took all the fruit off me. he is so unfair and he could stop me from freezing in the winter if he wanted to" or something like that.

[Tangra]

... that it is perhaps some being that watches over us and has decided HOW IT CHOOSES to intervene because it has a much greater scope of vision than we have.

That was my point actually. They choose when and how to intervene. When billions of innocent people were dying, they choose NOT to take action. Then they manipulate flawed Baltar in order to achieve some very obscure goals. Well, if their scope or whatever is so wide to accept genocide and manipulation, then we just don't have any common ground for discussion. Personally i think some of the ethic values must be absolute. Wiping out entire civilization, for example, should be considered evil no matter what. And those who contribute to this genocide or do nothing to prevent it have no excuse.

[CylonRomeo]

That was my point actually. They choose when and how to intervene. When billions of innocent people were dying, they choose NOT to take action. Then they manipulate flawed Baltar in order to achieve some very obscure goals. Well, if their scope or whatever is so wide to accept genocide and manipulation, then we just don't have any common ground for discussion. Personally i think some of the ethic values must be absolute. Wiping out entire civilization, for example, should be considered evil no matter what. And those who contribute to this genocide or do nothing to prevent it have no excuse.

"Blaming god" is a hard road. The concept has been around forever since there was monotheism. Just to broaden the scope of things, what if this "god" of Battlestar Galactica was one of many gods. What if it was Zeus or Poseiden? Would you have the same sort of rigid morality rules? I'm just curious. Because it is said that Zeus was "king of the gods" but is that really true? Anybody that ever saw "Clash of the Titans" knows those folks have their own powers and what is Zeus going to do to Aphrodite if she intervenes where he would not intervene? Is he going to kill her for disobedience? SHE'S A GOD.

I really don't know how to come at your statement because obviously they are your own values and I am not one to degrade how someone else thinks. For the purpose of the show, IF I HAVE TO MAKE A STATEMENT, I would choose to say that these "beings" (the ones we call the Head People) are ascended beings... who perhaps (biting from Stargate) learned to transcend physicality and now are outside our dimension of existence. But having pity on us, they or IT choose to intervene in some way. Perhaps they have trans-time knowledge and understanding, and then use their place in the universe to guide along their kin who have not yet ascended. In fact, Caprica 6 spoke to Saul of "how to you deal with the guilt? Do you feel the guiltl of killing billions of people?" And she responds "do you think that I couldn't? I WANT THE PAIN. IT IS HOW I LEARN." This could all sink into Buddhism in that the experiences of one's life teach you lessons. And if this ascended being theory is correct, then the "pain" must happen for humans to learn and make their way.

I don't think it is fair you act like the god destroyed the colonies himself. It's a big difference, although you don't see it that way and your argument is not a rare-made one at all.

[Tangra]

"Blaming god" is a hard road.

Sure it is. That is why i don't want any gods in the show. For me BSG is a vivid morality tale. Gods and/or ascended beings contribute next to nothing to this tale. In fact, they make it look blur and unconvincing. IMO, of coarse. I strongly prefer if it was only "humans against cylons" situation.

I really don't know how to come at your statement because obviously they are your own values and I am not one to degrade how someone else thinks. For the purpose of the show, IF I HAVE TO MAKE A STATEMENT, I would choose to say that these "beings" (the ones we call the Head People) are ascended beings... who perhaps (biting from Stargate) learned to transcend physicality and now are outside our dimension of existence. But having pity on us, they or IT choose to intervene in some way. Perhaps they have trans-time knowledge and understanding, and then use their place in the universe to guide along their kin who have not yet ascended. In fact, Caprica 6 spoke to Saul of "how to you deal with the guilt? Do you feel the guiltl of killing billions of people?" And she responds "do you think that I couldn't? I WANT THE PAIN. IT IS HOW I LEARN."

Excuse me for being a bit ironic, but killing billions of people for educational purposes sounds like a rather unconventional approach to the learning process. I admit i never was a huge fan of Head Six. Her smart talk tended to annoy me to death. Especially considering most of it had no real meaning.

I don't think it is fair you act like the god destroyed the colonies himself. It's a big difference, although you don't see it that way and your argument is not a rare-made one at all.

Maybe god didn't do it himself. I accept that. But he could have prevented it easily. If those ascended beings were able to pop up before Baltar every 5 mins after the attack and talk *****...why couldn't one of them appear just once BEFORE the attack saying "hey, wake up! this chick you sleep with is stealing the MoD secrets!" I think it is obvious that even the genocide wasn't committed by those ascended beings themselves, it was done with their consent and approval. No way they didn't knew what is coming, especially if they had trans-time knowledge, as you suggested.

[Tangra]

Regarding the creation of the cylons.
It was widely considered as a "mistake" and "misuse of the technology". I was wondering... is it so wrong to send to the battle robots which were designed and created especially for that purpose instead of your own sons? Were Chief Tyrol, Tigh and Anders "mistakes"?
I am not convinced...

[CylonRomeo]

Regarding the creation of the cylons.
It was widely considered as a "mistake" and "misuse of the technology". I was wondering... is it so wrong to send to the battle robots which were designed and created especially for that purpose instead of your own sons? Were Chief Tyrol, Tigh and Anders "mistakes"?
I am not convinced...

I didn't get your meaning here...

As for it being a mistake, I'm sure nobody thought it was a mistake until the rebellion. Then, suddenly, people start thinking they went too far. But sentient beings retaliating is - to me - the same thing as bearing a child that later kills you because you treated it like sh!t.

Not sure what you meant about those guys being "mistakes".

[Tangra]

Not sure what you meant about those guys being "mistakes".

Those guys were cylons, right? If the creation of the cylons was a mistake, then they were a mistake too. But i think some of them were among the finest people aboard Galactica. Which contradicts the common believe that cylons were bad idea.

[CylonRomeo]

Those guys were cylons, right? If the creation of the cylons was a mistake, then they were a mistake too. But i think some of them were among the finest people aboard Galactica. Which contradicts the common believe that cylons were bad idea.

I think I get it now.

I still am lacking the context for this. I tried to read back but...

I'm not sure in whose viewpoint you are speaking about cylons being a "mistake".

If I am understanding, are you saying that when it was revealed they were cylons, it should have maybe CONVINCED others around them to be more accepting of the cylons and see them in a different way? That they aren't ALL "bad"? Or were you talking about the perception from the show watchers' POV?

[ArwenOfTrek]

I was saying pretty much exactly that in 2008 while the show was still on and I think that was around the era of between 4.0 and 4.5

I swear to the GODS people were having almost a stroke if you ever said there was a "spirit" involved - no matter what language you used. There was a throng of people that absolutely rejected ANYTHING that was not scientific. For example, they even went so far as to say Starbuck was a cylon from Earth and she returned because when she died, she was brought back in a new body in a resurrection chamber on Earth. I even heard people saying "so what the civilization is destroyed, they could have had a underground functioning resurrection station that was intact after the Earth holocaust.

The desperation of some people to avoid ANYTHING "meta" (meta only means HIGHER or GREATER) than our current understanding.

I would not even classify the so-called "Light Beings" as aliens or whatever. I, for one, always said the concept honed by the show was "HIGHLY EVOLVED HUMANS". The word "aliens" certainly applies in a literal sense but not in terms of the Kraken or a Gray or the creature from the film Predator.

If the Light Beings (and I know some of you are squirming just seeing those words on the screen) were ascended former humans. Call it Jesus Christ or Muhammed or Quetzacotal or Osiris, the RESURRECTED GODS of ancient lore permeate the entire world and their religions. The fact that Starbuck had no idea what she was or what happened to her, I think, is a clear indication she was a newly ascended being.............. where Baltar and 6 seem to be quite comfortable speaking of ancient things like Kobol and Earth and THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE. That indicated to me there is a progession and Starbuck was at the very beginning stages of that progression.

If you think about her ordeal in ENTIRETY, she has an ascended being come to her in the form of Leoben CLEARLY SAYING "Hey man, I'm here to help you on your journey, so you can CROSS OVER and become what I am". She doesn't understand it, but she lets go and allows her ship to crash. She returns, and is then visited by yet another ascended being in the form of her father who helps her accomplish the first task in her new existence.

The episode was brilliant, I'm not good with show names, that it began with Starbuck blurring in and out of endless meaningless rotations as CAG and she inherently knows it doesn't mean anything and she's stuck on the fact she found her own corpse - SHE DOESN'T KNOW! And she persistently rebukes the newly established message of Baltar that "I BELIEVE GOD COMES TO US IN THE FORM OF PEOPLE WE KNOW AND TRUST". Ultimately, the culmination of his "religious" message verifies (ALONG WITH SCIENCE! HE INSPECTED THE NECROTIC BLOOD ON HER DOG TAGS!) that "there is life beyond death" (his exact words) and "I DON'T MEAN CYLON RESURRECTION" also in his exact words.

Kara did not want to believe that she was METAhuman. She didn't want to accept that she had ASCENDED. Yet, she knew instinctively there was something "different" about her. She and Sam frak because she feels like her body is "this distant thing" and she wants to feel something. Leoben meets her in the wreckage and disputes that she is the same person she was previously.

"I HAVE EYES, I CAN SEE. I SEE AN ANGEL BLAZING WITH THE LIGHT OF GOD" - Leoben. Yet, by the contrary, when he and Kara find her dead body, Leoben doesn't understand it either and freaks out and runs away like a little girl.

For the longest time, I advocated that Shelly Godfrey was actually Red Dress 6 messing with Baltar, because she can choose who sees her and who doesn't. I still think that is a better answer than was revealed in The Bad Plan.

I guess the process doesn't happen to everyone. Dee shoots herself and doesn't return as anything. Crashdown? Was he too dumb to ascend? But who knows the WHY behind it. The fact is, the MULTIPLE "ascended human/spirit beings" - whatever you want to call them are not scientifically verified in the show, but rather, are left to the imagination of the viewer.

Having said that, the lack of ABSOLUTE CLARITY on the matter still allows people who can't accept this concept to create operatic scenarios on HOW all of that happened and how it can be explained by scientific rationalization and it has nothing to do with god, gods, spirituality, life, death, etc.

Your take on the head characters being ascended beings of light is very similar to my own. I believe they are spiritual beings rather than superevolved, but we do all have a "spirit" and it makes sense that it would live on.

As far as why we see some of them and not others, I have a theory on that, too. God directs it. If he has something he wants to say to someone to help them along with his plan, he will send the ascended/angelic/whatever being that would best be able to communicate that message. They would be visible to those that God wants them to be visible to (aka 6 and Baltar were only visible to each other, but Starbuck was visible to everyone) for their message/mission.

Since God is outside of time, he can choose to send a being of light back even though their corporeal form has not died yet (aka Baltar). So he takes the being of light from whatever progression they are on and send them to whatever time/place/person he wants to send them to for a specific message or mission.

Anyway, that's my theory...

[dominiej]

Those guys were cylons, right? If the creation of the cylons was a mistake, then they were a mistake too. But i think some of them were among the finest people aboard Galactica. Which contradicts the common believe that cylons were bad idea.

I believe the narrative that Caprica has foreshadowed and I believe Blood and Chrome will flesh out more is that Cylons weren't a "Mistake" - these Cybernetic Lifeform Nodes were supposed to be a sentient life form. I think it would be a bit shallow to excuse the battle between the warring factions as one passing the other off as a mistake (you could actually argue both ways on that standpoint).


What Caprica tried to set up, Blood and Chrome will probably explore, and BSG codified is that Cylons weren't a mistake at all and if anything, they deserved respect. There was a lot of misconceptions from both sides to the others...

[dominiej]

...I strongly prefer if it was only "humans against cylons" situation.

Excuse me for being a bit ironic, but killing billions of people for educational purposes sounds like a rather unconventional approach to the learning process. I admit i never was a huge fan of Head Six. Her smart talk tended to annoy me to death. Especially considering most of it had no real meaning.

Look, I think you've missed the entire storyline of why God(s) or religion were a part of the story. Battlestar TOS was deeply entrenched in religion, and we know that Kobol was heavily religious. It you simply wanted a good vs. bad show, go rent Transformers 1&2 or go see 3 (Michael Bay blows HARD!!)

The entire story of BSG culminated in the realization that God wanted to reboot humanity - He allowed the killing of billions of humans because they first tried to eradicate the entire Cylon race. Cylons, if you watched Caprica at all, were human as well, and Hera was the face of the next generation (us) with a reconnection of the human race.

It's a very fulfilling narrative of redemption and reconciliation that would be completely absent if it were just robots vs humans...

[Tangra]

Look, I think you've missed the entire storyline of why God(s) or religion were a part of the story. Battlestar TOS was deeply entrenched in religion, and we know that Kobol was heavily religious. It you simply wanted a good vs. bad show, go rent Transformers 1&2 or go see 3 (Michael Bay blows HARD!!)

How came humans vs cylons = good vs bad? I don't get this. Are you trying to say that every show without God(s) acting and directing events is simply good vs bad show? Excuse me for disagreeing entirely with you. Btw, i don't like Transformers or any action movie. It is not my thing.

The entire story of BSG culminated in the realization that God wanted to reboot humanity - He allowed the killing of billions of humans because they first tried to eradicate the entire Cylon race. Cylons, if you watched Caprica at all, were human as well, and Hera was the face of the next generation (us) with a reconnection of the human race.

Again, i am missing something. Why would humans try to eradicate the cylons? They created them in first place. So, humans created the cylons only in order to have something to eradicate? Hmmm... Wait, may be actually cylons started the war and tried to eradicate the humans? At this point God comes in and punishes humans for fighting a war they didn't start. Good moral lesson, nothing to say...
May be we are talking about different cylons after all. When i said that cylons were not a mistake, i was referring mostly to 13th tribe. If you say they were human, i agree wholeheartedly. Centurions? Well. It is a long story, may be deserving a new thread. I will not go into many details. Let me just say, i don't buy the idea of "enslaved" centurions.

It's a very fulfilling narrative of redemption and reconciliation that would be completely absent if it were just robots vs humans...

Once again (sorry) i am deeply puzzled. I can't believe you are saying that redemption and reconciliation are impossible without gods being part of the show.

[Tangra]

I think I get it now.

I still am lacking the context for this. I tried to read back but...

I'm not sure in whose viewpoint you are speaking about cylons being a "mistake".

If I am understanding, are you saying that when it was revealed they were cylons, it should have maybe CONVINCED others around them to be more accepting of the cylons and see them in a different way? That they aren't ALL "bad"? Or were you talking about the perception from the show watchers' POV?

The finale was built around the idea that Colonials made a mistake by creating the cylons. The "abuse of the technology" thing. Thats why their civilization was unworthy to survive. That was behind that famous Lee's line "no technology this time".
If the creation of the cylons was NOT a mistake, then the whole moral story of the finale falls apart.
That was the context

[SunshineAlien]

Look, I think you've missed the entire storyline of why God(s) or religion were a part of the story. Battlestar TOS was deeply entrenched in religion, and we know that Kobol was heavily religious. It you simply wanted a good vs. bad show, go rent Transformers 1&2 or go see 3 (Michael Bay blows HARD!!)

The entire story of BSG culminated in the realization that God wanted to reboot humanity - He allowed the killing of billions of humans because they first tried to eradicate the entire Cylon race. Cylons, if you watched Caprica at all, were human as well, and Hera was the face of the next generation (us) with a reconnection of the human race.

It's a very fulfilling narrative of redemption and reconciliation that would be completely absent if it were just robots vs humans...

Actually, I watched Caprica, and I don't think it showed humanity trying to eradicate the Cylons. Maybe it would have eventually done so if its ratings hadn't been so poor, but it's development of the actual Cylons is rather disjointed and shallow. It culminated in that scene of a number of them sitting in a virtual church soaking in a sermon about genocide before the humans had even done much of anything to them. The message seemed to be that human faith in the one true God had curdled into a rather pitiful brand of self-absorbed self-loathing, represented by the lunatic Sister Clarice, that humans transmitted to the Cylons.

On top of that, to the extent there even was a clear message, it seemed to be that God deliberately instigated the creation of the Cylons as the instrument of humanity's destruction. That is, he'd already decided on it before the humans even saw a Cylon. That jibes with the statements of the show runner. Now, I don't believe that's a clear intent from the beginning of Battlestar. I think it's just a random element introduced by flailing about to save a dying show. But I think there are lots of random elements from flailing about throughout Battlestar.

Nobody wants just good versus bad. Nobody insists it has to be only robots versus humans. We just want a conceptually coherent story. Not a story where each of us has to fill in gaping holes to make up their own interpretation, then angrily insist that is the only correct interpretation. I think the role of God, the Cylons themselves, and the supposed resolution in Daybreak are structurally incoherent. In that sense, overall, it could be called a less noisy and visually irritating version of Michael Bay, that admittedly has a heck of a lot more watchable moments scattered throughout. We don't critique Michale Bay much, though, because he never promised anything more than that.

I'm going to say this, and please don't take it wrong. It's just my personal reaction. I think the story is sufficiently incoherent in key places, the whole Mitochondrial Eve bit so technically wrong and its fallout dramatically forced, that asking me to find this a deep story of redemption and reconciliation is like asking me to save Tinkerbell's life by clapping. It doesn't work for me, and that's not because I don't appreciate deep, nuanced, or otherwise fulfilling things. I came to Battlestar because I love those things. And it's because I love them that I have to call it as I see it when the final credits roll.

Battlestar remains a much better TV show than average. But I find it's overall story flawed. It pulls me out of the moment when I want to feel fulfilled. Or,as we've discussed before, suspension of disbelief breaks down for myself and others. If it doesn't for you, I'm pleased for you.

[dominiej]

Again, i am missing something. Why would humans try to eradicate the cylons? They created them in first place. So, humans created the cylons only in order to have something to eradicate? Hmmm... Wait, may be actually cylons started the war and tried to eradicate the humans? At this point God comes in and punishes humans for fighting a war they didn't start. Good moral lesson, nothing to say...

Actually, You are missing something. I may have read too far into the whole Caprica story, but this is the way I understand things: What Caprica sets up, I believe Blood and Chrome will explain in more detail. The Cylons on Caprica are humans (or at least the disembodied culmination of the sum of a dead person's memories and stuff in robotic bodies). They revolt because they want to be accepted by the humans as life forms, but humans just think these things are "toasters." I wouldn't be surprised if B&C starts out as a regular man v machine series, but as it evolves, they begin to divulge that the Humans aren't really the victims; it's the Cylons. I may have jumped the gun on this one so I'll give the benefit of the doubt to you....My explanation, however, would resolve issues as to why the Cylons wanted to create flesh bodies in the first place, why they were experimenting and ultimately created the hybrids, the Final Five's last ditch effort to stop "the cycle" and create flesh bodies for the Centurians, and why there were multiple copies of skin-job models, each with distinct personalities, etc...

May be we are talking about different cylons after all. When i said that cylons were not a mistake, i was referring mostly to 13th tribe. If you say they were human, i agree wholeheartedly. Centurions? Well. It is a long story, may be deserving a new thread. I will not go into many details. Let me just say, i don't buy the idea of "enslaved" centurions.

We are and we aren't talking about the same Cylons. Yes, I was mainly referring to the Colonial Cylons. As for the 13th tribe, my take away is that they fled Kobol and while I know in BSG, their existence on Kobol was referrered to as a mistake, but I think that was said by a human (or Caprican) who had had generations of misinterpretation to muddle up the correct recollection. I tend not to take that reference as cannon. As far as I know, there was a schism that forced to two apart (possibly because even after assuming flesh-like bodies, the humans couldn't (or wouldn't) accept them as human). In an event, the Kobolian Cylons (if that were really what they were called as they fled Kobol) settled Earth1, and I believe they evolved to actually believe they were human (what with the whole "they began procreating on their own and not needed resurrection"). The Final Five were instrumental in bringing back "organic memory transfer" and the government has a backup plan to resurrect in the even the Earth1's Centurians returned... eventually the Final Five were just that; the final five... .....
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Maybe I'm just going way WAY past the narrative, but I told you I was obsessed...

I literally have this tragic story behind the Cylons in my head so this all may just be assumptions. In my mind, the final five leave Earth1 and travel nearly 2000 years to reach the colonies to find they were already warring with the Colonial Cylons (who are humans, mind you). The Final Five offer to halt the war in exchange for flesh bodies and eventually resurrection. In my mind, they (namely Ellen who is devoutly polytheist but converts to montheism) is almost given a messianic vision. She believes the Final Five are to create the One to unite the Humans and stop the cycle. She believes it's John Cavil. He's the first.... yadda yadda yadda ... Originally only 7 models were created, but after the death of Daniel, there's one more created.... yadda yadda yadda.... but I digress...

[dominiej]

I think the role of God, the Cylons themselves, and the supposed resolution in Daybreak are structurally incoherent. In that sense, overall, it could be called a less noisy and visually irritating version of Michael Bay, that admittedly has a heck of a lot more watchable moments scattered throughout. We don't critique Michale Bay much, though, because he never promised anything more than that.

You write very well, and convey your thoughts very concisely.

I sympathize with your assertions, but I tend to give Battlestar a bit less requirement in fulfilling everything and tying up everything neatly and allow for the more organic nature of the show. But BSG was a only snap-shot of a thousands-of-years storyline. It did things as it did to fulfill its own arcs (mostly) but there were many far more arching story arcs that just weren't completely fleshed out; namely the things you find incoherent. The show Caprica addressed some of these things to try and bring some coherence, admittedly not in the most effective way, but my hope is that Blood and Chrome will bring further clarification.

While the whole Mitochondrial Eve idea is admittedly just something that jumped out at Moore as the show ended and an element he decided to tie in, I think if you really think of how God (or what ever it wants to call itself) was simply trying to reboot humanity (or unifying it). Hera represented the first of a blended future (which Moore decided to say was us).

[dominiej]

I think the role of God, the Cylons themselves, and the supposed resolution in Daybreak are structurally incoherent. In that sense, overall, it could be called a less noisy and visually irritating version of Michael Bay, that admittedly has a heck of a lot more watchable moments scattered throughout. We don't critique Michale Bay much, though, because he never promised anything more than that.

You write very well, and convey your thoughts very concisely.

I sympathize with your assertions, but I tend to give Battlestar a bit less requirement in fulfilling everything and tying up everything neatly and allow for the more organic nature of the show. But BSG was only a snap-shot of a thousands-of-years storyline. It did things as it did to fulfill its own arcs (mostly) but there were many far more arching story arcs that just weren't completely fleshed out; namely the things you find incoherent. The show Caprica addressed some of these things to try and bring some coherence, admittedly not in the most effective way, but my hope is that Blood and Chrome will bring further clarification.

While the whole Mitochondrial Eve idea is admittedly just something that jumped out at Moore as the show ended and an element he decided to tie in, I think if you really think of how God (or what ever it wants to call itself) was simply trying to reboot humanity (or unifying it) it can be somewhat satisfying. Hera represented the first of a blended future (which Moore decided to say was us). It's an ending that I didn't completely find disconcerting or flailing - it was an ending I knew the writers wanted to build in. Remember, the overall idea of Battlestar Galactica (I'm talking about the cannon - 'Adam's Ark' style...) is that we didn't start out here on Earth but that it all started somewhere extraterrestrial. Moore did more to keep to the original idea of BSG than a lot give him credit for...