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TOS: Reptilians created the cylons?????


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#1 CylonRomeo

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 07:45 PM

in the original series, within the first 3 episodes (may have been the very first episode) Apollo explains briefly to someone the cylons were created by a REPTILIAN RACE long ago.

wtf?

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#2 Astacius

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 08:29 PM

Yup, that how the original story went. Kind of silly ain't it?

#3 Annoyed58

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Posted 12 December 2011 - 11:35 PM

Yup, that how the original story went. Kind of silly ain't it?


Yes, that is indeed how the story went. I believe that Apollo was talking to his adopted son, Boxy, answering his childlike questions about the Cylons. This occurred in the 3 hour premiere episode "Saga of a Star World" & the theatrical release titled "Battlestar Galactica" which didn't hit theaters in the US until the following summer, and was modified from the TV broadcast in some ways. Baltar was beheaded by the Cylons, for example.

There was also a paperback novel titled "Battlestar Galactica" which fleshed out many of the details of the TOS universe.

I'm proud to say I still have that paperback book from way back in '78 when I purchased it. =)

As far as it being silly...

Well, in TOS you have an alien race that had created a race of machines to do their bidding; they lost control of them and the robots rebelled and overthrew their creators, wiping them out.

In RDM's version, you have a human race that had created a race of machines to do their bidding; they lost control of them and the robots rebelled and overthrew their creators, wiping them out. ( or very nearly so )
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#4 Astacius

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 05:05 PM

Yes, that is indeed how the story went. I believe that Apollo was talking to his adopted son, Boxy, answering his childlike questions about the Cylons. This occurred in the 3 hour premiere episode "Saga of a Star World" & the theatrical release titled "Battlestar Galactica" which didn't hit theaters in the US until the following summer, and was modified from the TV broadcast in some ways. Baltar was beheaded by the Cylons, for example.

There was also a paperback novel titled "Battlestar Galactica" which fleshed out many of the details of the TOS universe.

I'm proud to say I still have that paperback book from way back in '78 when I purchased it. =)

As far as it being silly...

Well, in TOS you have an alien race that had created a race of machines to do their bidding; they lost control of them and the robots rebelled and overthrew their creators, wiping them out.

In RDM's version, you have a human race that had created a race of machines to do their bidding; they lost control of them and the robots rebelled and overthrew their creators, wiping them out. ( or very nearly so )



I didn't mean that the way it sounded, I was just joking around. :)

I found the re-imagined series to be a lot more in depth and far superior to the original in every aspect.


#5 Annoyed58

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 05:20 PM

I didn't mean that the way it sounded, I was just joking around. :)

I found the re-imagined series to be a lot more in depth and far superior to the original in every aspect.


I was just pointing out that RDM incorporated a great deal of the mythos of TOS in the reboot, sometimes with very little, if any modification.

The most glaring omissions, at least on the surface, are the Seraphs, whom I think are represented by the godlike aspects of head characters, Starbuck's resurrection and the other mysterious aspects of the show, and the "Terran" race that spawned the Eastern Alliance and the other Democratic? society on that planet.

I think these were omitted due to EJO's promise to leave the show if aliens were brought into it.
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#6 pscard

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 06:24 PM

Yes, that is indeed how the story went. I believe that Apollo was talking to his adopted son, Boxy, answering his childlike questions about the Cylons. This occurred in the 3 hour premiere episode "Saga of a Star World" & the theatrical release titled "Battlestar Galactica" which didn't hit theaters in the US until the following summer, and was modified from the TV broadcast in some ways. Baltar was beheaded by the Cylons, for example.

There was also a paperback novel titled "Battlestar Galactica" which fleshed out many of the details of the TOS universe.

I'm proud to say I still have that paperback book from way back in '78 when I purchased it. =)


As far as it being silly...

Well, in TOS you have an alien race that had created a race of machines to do their bidding; they lost control of them and the robots rebelled and overthrew their creators, wiping them out.

In RDM's version, you have a human race that had created a race of machines to do their bidding; they lost control of them and the robots rebelled and overthrew their creators, wiping them out. ( or very nearly so )

I also have my copy of that book! :)

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#7 Astacius

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Posted 13 December 2011 - 07:44 PM

I was just pointing out that RDM incorporated a great deal of the mythos of TOS in the reboot, sometimes with very little, if any modification.

The most glaring omissions, at least on the surface, are the Seraphs, whom I think are represented by the godlike aspects of head characters, Starbuck's resurrection and the other mysterious aspects of the show, and the "Terran" race that spawned the Eastern Alliance and the other Democratic? society on that planet.

I think these were omitted due to EJO's promise to leave the show if aliens were brought into it.


I realize what point you were making about the similarities between the two versions. The point I was trying to make was that RDM's BSG was better for not including aliens and such.

Getting to the highlighted part of your quote, the Seraphs you speak of were the ones who had those ships of lights right? If so, that's who I've always believed were behind the head characters, especially when Kara came back with that shiny new viper. So for me, I laugh at the 'God did it' nonsense some toss around.


#8 Annoyed58

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 02:08 AM

I realize what point you were making about the similarities between the two versions. The point I was trying to make was that RDM's BSG was better for not including aliens and such.

Getting to the highlighted part of your quote, the Seraphs you speak of were the ones who had those ships of lights right? If so, that's who I've always believed were behind the head characters, especially when Kara came back with that shiny new viper. So for me, I laugh at the 'God did it' nonsense some toss around.


Yes, the Seraphs are the "Beings of Light". Although never referred to as such in the TV show, apparently, there was a comic book version of Galactica in the mid 90's that did name them. I haven't seen this comic book.
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#9 jxf011

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 07:10 AM

Well, in TOS you have an alien race that had created a race of machines to do their bidding; they lost control of them and the robots rebelled and overthrew their creators, wiping them out.

In RDM's version, you have a human race that had created a race of machines to do their bidding; they lost control of them and the robots rebelled and overthrew their creators, wiping them out. ( or very nearly so )


I think the key story element to the new BSG over the original was adding Cylon humanoids and eliminating the alien Cylon creators. Both series have run away from dangerous Cylons and find a safe new home, e.g. Earth.

But by making humans the Cylon creators and, critically, having nearly indistinguishable Cylon humanoids, the focus of the show became "what is a person, what is humanity" and not just run away and find a safe home. To be fair to the original BSG, aliens were the rage in 1978, I remember being mesmerized by the Mos Eisley Cantina in Star Wars - so many aliens! But Star Wars is almost the opposite of the new BSG which is so character focused. Lucas is known for telling actors "act less, just say the lines" where RDM is all about characters, even over story and definitely over special effects. RDM said a lot in podcasts that he'd just write "and a space battle follows" and let the FX team do it.

Humanoid Cylons really changed the show's dynamic; how many times did we hear "it's just a machine"? I freaked out hollering at the TV about free will, brains are just organic computers, genetics are a form of programming etc. And by having humans create the Cylons, we have a mobius strip of responsibility between the human creator and Cylon usurpers which Cavil and others referenced.

Brilliant changes to the BSG foundation for a great reboot.

#10 Bandit82ABN2

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 02:26 PM

Yes, that is indeed how the story went. I believe that Apollo was talking to his adopted son, Boxy, answering his childlike questions about the Cylons. This occurred in the 3 hour premiere episode "Saga of a Star World" & the theatrical release titled "Battlestar Galactica" which didn't hit theaters in the US until the following summer, and was modified from the TV broadcast in some ways. Baltar was beheaded by the Cylons, for example.

There was also a paperback novel titled "Battlestar Galactica" which fleshed out many of the details of the TOS universe.

I'm proud to say I still have that paperback book from way back in '78 when I purchased it. =)

As far as it being silly...

Well, in TOS you have an alien race that had created a race of machines to do their bidding; they lost control of them and the robots rebelled and overthrew their creators, wiping them out.

In RDM's version, you have a human race that had created a race of machines to do their bidding; they lost control of them and the robots rebelled and overthrew their creators, wiping them out. ( or very nearly so )


To expand..Apollo also explained to Boxey the reason for the war, was because of the hatred Cylons had for humans. He told him "They hate us with every fiber of their existence, and won't stop until they exterminate us".

In RDM's version, this was changed to "they have a plan" to explain why they are trying to exterminate humans.

In TOS, there were different models of Cylons, to include humanoid (BSG 1980). RDM also took that idea to incorporate into his version.

In TOS, Cylons were capable of independant thought as well as thought outside of their basic programming, and did not always do as they were told. They also understood and were capable of emotions. RDM borrowed those ideas as well.

As you said, RDM incorporated a great deal of the mythos of TOS, in the reboot/reimagined show. As you mentioned omissions, I'll expand on the most glaring additions.

The Cylons are sentient, in RDM's version. Only the Centurions are considered "expendable" (cannot be uploaded), a term/fact they very much dislike.

Humanoid Cylons are extremely difficult to discern from an actual human, yet they have no problem telling themselves apart from another copy.

Cylon technology is more organic based, than metallic/machine.



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#11 CylonRomeo

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 09:36 PM

Well, in TOS you have an alien race that had created a race of machines to do their bidding; they lost control of them and the robots rebelled and overthrew their creators, wiping them out.

In RDM's version, you have a human race that had created a race of machines to do their bidding; they lost control of them and the robots rebelled and overthrew their creators, wiping them out. ( or very nearly so )


It is odd because THOSE machines in TOS don't seem to be self-sustainable. Not like the ones in TNS were... but at least the skinjob component made it seem that way. I haven't finished the entire series yet, I just watched War of the Gods, so I'm somewhat near the end. And I've seen Experiments in Terra before... but it blew my mind how a REPTILIAN RACE made the cylons... and "their whole purpose is to destroy us". At least in TNS, there were reasons and WHYS offered for what the cylons were doing. AND a direct correlation between them and humanity because humans made them... thus, a grudge or whatever. It seems silly now to think in the late 70s we would accept the notion of an enemy's "sole purpose to destroy us" with no real reason attached to it.

Oh... but that's what muslims want to do to us. So, I guess it all makes sense now.

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#12 CaproCaine

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Posted 14 December 2011 - 10:00 PM

It is odd because THOSE machines in TOS don't seem to be self-sustainable. Not like the ones in TNS were... but at least the skinjob component made it seem that way. I haven't finished the entire series yet, I just watched War of the Gods, so I'm somewhat near the end. And I've seen Experiments in Terra before... but it blew my mind how a REPTILIAN RACE made the cylons... and "their whole purpose is to destroy us".


Don't forget to take a peek at the 'skinjobs' that followed Adama and his wayward group to Earth. I am certain it was Roger Davis, of Alias Smith and Jones fame, that played him. While William Daniels played a foil type character that didn't like having a Cylon and a human riding about in his car.

"The night the Cylons landed" could be the one.

#13 Annoyed58

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 01:39 AM

It is odd because THOSE machines in TOS don't seem to be self-sustainable. Not like the ones in TNS were... but at least the skinjob component made it seem that way. I haven't finished the entire series yet, I just watched War of the Gods, so I'm somewhat near the end. And I've seen Experiments in Terra before... but it blew my mind how a REPTILIAN RACE made the cylons... and "their whole purpose is to destroy us". At least in TNS, there were reasons and WHYS offered for what the cylons were doing. AND a direct correlation between them and humanity because humans made them... thus, a grudge or whatever. It seems silly now to think in the late 70s we would accept the notion of an enemy's "sole purpose to destroy us" with no real reason attached to it.

Oh... but that's what muslims want to do to us. So, I guess it all makes sense now.


Now that I think of it, in "Saga of a Star World", wasn't there a Quorum of the 12 meeting where while the was orbiting Carillon where Sire Uri suggested that they lay down their arms and the Cylons would do the same; if the Colonials were no threat to the Cylons, they wouldn't be at risk, and Adama said something along the lines of "Yes, you're right, the Cylons weren't a threat to us until we went to the aid of (I forget, some other race) whom they wished to enslave?"

So this would have been the starting point of the Colonials' thousand yaren war with the Cylons.
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#14 pscard

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Posted 15 December 2011 - 05:04 AM

Don't forget to take a peek at the 'skinjobs' that followed Adama and his wayward group to Earth. I am certain it was Roger Davis, of Alias Smith and Jones fame, that played him. While William Daniels played a foil type character that didn't like having a Cylon and a human riding about in his car.

"The night the Cylons landed" could be the one.

You are correct. That episode was from Galactica 1980. William Daniels' character picked them up on his way to a Halloween party at his wife's urging (Lara Parker, 'Angelique', Dark Shadows).

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#15 CylonRomeo

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 05:29 AM

Some randoms:

1) nobody seems to have real names in TOS? I don't think I've ever heard yet (and I am close to the end) anyone call "Adama" anything buyt "Adama" or "Commander", and only "Starbuck" and "Apollo" and same with Athena and Sheba and Boomer. "Tigh" I'm assuming that's his name, not a call-sign but not sure. They call him "Col. Tigh".

2) this is the first time I've watched TOS all the way through and though I was very young when it was on TV, I now remember why I didn't like it. Too many children, and that mechanical pet for Boxey. I had a flashback to seeing that on TV as a child and it being a big turn off.

3) the Eastern Alliance people, did they come straight from the Star Wars Death Star set?

4) all the weird details about 1/5 oxygen levels on planets and in space pods and on that farm planet and the techno babble and the attempt at being "scientific" was probably a turn off for a lot of viewers in 1978. and the references to all these different planets and who they belonged to, it was confusing. I did gather it seemed Galactica (and the cylons chasing them) I assumed passed into another "arm" of the galaxy thus they were encountering people and civilizations that had nothing to do with their colonies. At least that is what I perceived happened. Back then, sci-fi I think used the words "galaxy" and "universe" interchangeably... but of course, science was just learning the difference and I doubt they had major scientific input with such things to the show.

5) the idea of Baltar (another one namer) made no sense. In the beginning, it seemed he made a deal with the cylons to destroy the colonies but to leave his colony alone so he could rule it. Then, they disregard that agreement and take him prisoner but then give him command of a base ship to chase Galactica. Then, he is "delivered" to Galactica by Iblis and sits in a cell until he escapes with the Klingonic people. That's where I am right now.

6) the "council of 12" was ridiculous, obviously it was what TNS called the quorum, but now suddenly, they are all opposing Adama and telling him "you aren't in command anymore, we are" but prior to this, their role was never clear. Baltar was brought to them for judgment, and they were trying to "vote" to "follow Iblis" (whatever that really meant). But as was said in Baltar Escapes, the fleet had been under martial law and Adama was calling the shots. I don't get what is making anyone even acknowledge the council in the first place. They don't seem to have any function. At least in TNS it showed them opposing measures and bringing concerns to the president, etc... they didn't even try to portray that in TOS. Plus, there was no president. It was all kind of Adama rules the military and is on the council too.

7) long ago, in this forum, it was being discussed what exactly was inside Iblis' ship they did not want Sheba to see (when Iblis appears there and kills Apollo). Somebody suggested it was like dead demons or demonic figures or something about people with cloven hooves. I understand Iblis was ultimately portrayed as an errant Light Being, and possibly a satanic figure, but does anyone know for sure what was in the ruined ship that made them sure NOT to trust him? It seemed once they saw what was there, the jig was up for him.

8) as for the argument in other threads about the resurrection of Kara Thrace - and her fuzzy memory of what exactly happened - was this not fleshed out almost completely in War of the Gods II when the advanced beings bring Apollo back from death? And the fact they plainly said they were not God or The Gods but ADVANCED BEINGS? IMO, shouldn't this put the warmongering to rest about science versus religion and spirituality? Some people are so upset Kara was an "angel" but the whole thing is already played out in TOS with even Apollo given a "special mission" later on in episode Experiment in Terra.

9) oddly, the cylons are missing for a huge duration of the show. They don't even appear at all for several episodes concurrently. They're just a referenced threat. How does Galactica even know they are still being followed? They don't even mention it.

10) the "Red Eye" cylon that crashed and becomes a saloon gunfighter was ridiculous, it seemed to be under the control of that one guy, and how does that happen? He moves as the snap of that guy's finger. Odd at best.

11) do we ever get to see the Imperial Leader that was sitting in the chair in the very beginning? What was it?

12) I understand humanoid cylons are present in BSG1980 (I'm watching that next) but that middle-man cylon with the cone head (Lucifer??? lol) that was strange because you've got the imperial leader who is governing Baltar who is governing the cone head who is governing the gold-colored toasters who govern the silver toasters. If we are loathe for the alleged Cython in B&C, I don't think we can complain with such cylon hierarchy being present in TOS. Meaning, I guess the concept is valid. In TNS, it was ONE cylon, the original toasters. and then the skinjobs who made their own toasters and raiders with limited sentience.


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#16 Annoyed58

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Posted 16 December 2011 - 07:21 AM

I can clarify a few things for you, I'll edit this later to do so, but I don't have time right now.

I'd suggest you see if you can find a copy of the 1978 paperback novel "Battlestar Galactica". As is usually the case, books flesh out the details of what is shown on TV/Film. It doesn't explain away the pure sillyness, but it's probably worth reading.

2) this is the first time I've watched TOS all the way through and though I was very young when it was on TV, I now remember why I didn't like it. Too many children, and that mechanical pet for Boxey. I had a flashback to seeing that on TV as a child and it being a big turn off.

This was on the air during a period of time when various interests were pressuring TV networks to have fare appropriate for and targeted to kids. "Family Viewing Hour" was going on back then; for example, as a cooperative effort among the 3 (Yes, folks, total of 3) national TV networks to escape government regulation. In fact, this was how ABC decided to drive the final nail in the coffin of BSG. They moved it to FVH, and as a result, the "Galactica 1980" episodes are mostly childrens' fare, with the notable exception of the 1st 3 hours and the final episode.

3) the Eastern Alliance people, did they come straight from the Star Wars Death Star set?

1978/79 was back in the days of the active cold war between the former U.S.S.R & The United States, well before Ronald Reagan had taken office, let alone caused their breakup.

The Eastern Alliance was a direct parallel with the publicly held (in the U.S. anyway) image of the former soviet government & its military.

6) the "council of 12" was ridiculous, obviously it was what TNS called the quorum, but now suddenly, they are all opposing Adama and telling him "you aren't in command anymore, we are" but prior to this, their role was never clear. Baltar was brought to them for judgment, and they were trying to "vote" to "follow Iblis" (whatever that really meant). But as was said in Baltar Escapes, the fleet had been under martial law and Adama was calling the shots. I don't get what is making anyone even acknowledge the council in the first place. They don't seem to have any function. At least in TNS it showed them opposing measures and bringing concerns to the president, etc... they didn't even try to portray that in TOS. Plus, there was no president. It was all kind of Adama rules the military and is on the council too.

I think the opposition to Adama's authority was quelled towards the later part of the Carillon fiasco, when the leader of that opposition, Sire Uri was standing in the party room yelling out that he's in charge, immediately afterwards, Cylons enter the room and Uri points to Adama and says "Follow him, he's in charge".

As far as martial law was concerned, although they had at least partially reformed their representative government by the time of Count Iblis appearance, I think they were under martial law from the start. There was none of the foolishness of allowing a civilian government to make decisions that was depicted in RDM's version. The council had an advisory role only. Considering their circumstances, in my opinion, martial law is the proper form of government.

Regarding #8, I've always held the view that the supernatural events in the RDM version were his portrayal of the Beings of Light; he couldn't show them directly as EJO painted him into a corner. EJO's contract included a provision allowing him to quit if aliens were brought into the series.

9) oddly, the cylons are missing for a huge duration of the show. They don't even appear at all for several episodes concurrently. They're just a referenced threat. How does Galactica even know they are still being followed? They don't even mention it.

I think you are referring to "Galactica 1980" here. Cylons are expensive to film, and ABC was starving this show budgetwise.


11) do we ever get to see the Imperial Leader that was sitting in the chair in the very beginning? What was it?

Read the book I referenced at the top of this post. The details of Imperious Leader and the workings of the Cylons in general are fleshed out a great deal in that book.

Edited by Annoyed58, 17 December 2011 - 10:37 AM.

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#17 CylonRomeo

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 05:45 PM

this is fun talking with people familiar with TOS.

BSG1980................ lords of kobol, that mess was bad. Whoever said it, yes, the first three episodes and the last episode are the only ones that had really anything interesting.

What I fiund reall STRANGE was "The Return of Starbuck" and how the pregnant lady mirrored Head 6 of TNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "our spiritual child" and all this.... that threw me a little. And how the "message" in that episode was the blending of human and cylon.... like the premise of TNS... just a strange episode in general. I guess they were probably going to go more in that direction if the show continued..... and Dr Z, the child of wisdom, equalled only by the bionic children on Earth from Galactica, jumping over trees and throwing a baseball through a wall, etc. Wow, what a schizophrenic show. I'm just about to watch the episode with the "skinjob" going to the halloween party. This is truly so bad it's good... and those flying bikes, omg

and according to wiki:

"The Wheel of Fire," an unproduced Galactica 1980 episode, reveals that Starbuck was eventually rescued by the beings from the Ship of Lights and that the entire affair of Starbuck finding Angela, delivering her child, and sending him to the Colonial Fleet was engineered by them, to test whether Starbuck was worthy to join them. Starbuck passes the test and becomes one of the Ship's crew.

how weird, it's just all over the place. At least TNS had specific parameters it stuck within. The premise of the Galactican children on earth was probably the most offensive thing I'd seen in a while.


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#18 mbozzo2008

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 07:11 PM

When Leoben talk about God created the Cylons, I believe that he was referring to the original reptilian race. It cause me to believe that the third series might be a sequel to the first series. I change my mind after seeing Daylight. Now I believe that the third series is a prequel to the first series. Galactica 1980 might have make a mistake with the Super Scouts arc, but it could be remade under another name, and continue the time travel story line from Galactica Discover Earth. That story line should last a year and conclude with a crossover with the characters from the third series. That's what I think. :D

#19 Annoyed58

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Posted 17 December 2011 - 11:05 PM

When Leoben talk about God created the Cylons, I believe that he was referring to the original reptilian race. It cause me to believe that the third series might be a sequel to the first series. I change my mind after seeing Daylight. Now I believe that the third series is a prequel to the first series. Galactica 1980 might have make a mistake with the Super Scouts arc, but it could be remade under name, and continue the time travel story line from Galactica Discover Earth. That story line should last a year and conclude with a crossover with the characters from the third series. That's what I think. :D


The TNS Cylons are stated to be a direct offshoot of machines created by the Humans of the 12 colonies, there never was a reptilian race as there was with TOS.

The whole "Super Scouts" and the child-centric nature of most of Galactica 1980 was a result of ABC's decision to move the show to what was called "Family Viewing Hour".

Remember, this was before Cable/Satellite TV. Back then, there were only 3 national TV networks; ABC, CBS & NBC, along with government funded PBS. Various groups were pressuring the government to restrict the content aired by these 3 networks to fare that was more child friendly. As a cooperative effort to escape regulation, the 3 networks created Family Viewing Hour, a period of time early in the evening marked for child friendly fare.

ABC wanted to kill the Galactica franchise for good, as it was expensive to produce, but do it in a way that wouldn't result in a massive letter writing campaign as happened when the original Galactica was canceled. What better way than to move it to FVH, with stories written for children so the audience lost interest anyway?

The idea of picking up a new series or film at a point in G1980, after the chase back through time to Nazi Germany is over is a good one. With Xavier on the loose, with all of human history to hide in, any writer worth the paper his paycheck is printed on ought to be able to have a field day with that. Heck, I could do something with that rich a vein of material.
--
"It may seem pointless but small talk is a vital dating skill. It helps to establish a rapport with your companion." - Starship Voyager's Holographic Doctor

"Perhaps there's something to be said for assimilation after all." - Former Borg Seven of Nine

#20 CylonRomeo

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Posted 18 December 2011 - 05:36 AM

Lastly, skinjob and toaster (on Halloween) crash at earth and can blend in because of the groovy holiday, but get accosted by by boxey and troy who shoot them, and the cylon grabs the skinjob saying "i will protect you" and leaps off the building, propmptly landing in a dumpster.

but that's not all.

the dumpster TRUCK is seen maniacally driving away with the roving red eye cylon repeating "I will protect you". So I guess the door was open for the skinjob and the cylon to eventually emerge from landfill to wreak havoc in a future plot?


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