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Got done watching all of BSG


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#1 Kracov

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 02:22 PM

It truly was an awesome series. the characters were done wonderfully. No other show has made me felt as much as BSG has. I have a lot of questions though:

1- Why was the amount of action/battles much lower in S3 and S4? I know that the Cylons started to try to be more peaceful, but still- BSG was supposed to be about Cylons battling humans, so it felt like they were trying to save money by keeping it as a space opera (which is good i guess, just could have been better)

2- Apollo as a politician, lawyer and President? Sigh, why was his character nerfed so badly?

3- What happened to the romance between Apollo and Starbuck? They never truly got to be with each other, it just saddens me, especially the ending when she disappeared.

4- Why did Adama chose to be alone instead of stay with his son? Okay, I understand he wanted to be with Laura, but then she died. I wonder if he ever went back to see his son.

5- What was the point in the 5 Cylons? They didn't seem to fulfill any purpose even at the end. All they did was "confirm" that Starbuck's ship pointed to Cylon Earth, and then Tyrol killed Tory, they didn't even get to restart the resurrection stuff.

6- Was anyone else disappointed by the "Opera House" when Gaius and Six finally bring Hera to the CIC? All that happened was that Gaius tried to convince Cavil to change his ways, but he ended up killing himself. It just seemed like a weak event compared to the dreams that Roslin, Six and Athena had- seemed to signify a cosmic event or something truly life-changing. I also thought that Gaius and Six would adopt Hera or something like that.

#2 ThPrimes

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 04:35 PM

Just my opinion not necessarily authoritative. I believe many of questions can be answered by Making It Up As You Go Along™. I have gone back and forth over this and at long last believe it is an asset and not a liability. Essentially on a creative level they are reacting to what works, and reinforcing this, and what does not, and abandoning that. The extreme alternative is to follow a rigid plan without regard to its unfolding performance or merit. That works for novels and movies. It can't work for seasonal television shows.

1- Why was the amount of action/battles much lower in S3 and S4? I know that the Cylons started to try to be more peaceful, but still- BSG was supposed to be about Cylons battling humans, so it felt like they were trying to save money by keeping it as a space opera (which is good i guess, just could have been better)

For budget yes. But I also refer you to S04E01 podcast He That Believeth in Me where RDM is pleasantly surprised and proud at how well the space battle turned out. (It was nominated for Emmy later) He thought space battles had grown repetitive and didn't serve story points as well as they did earlier in the series. So blame him. Posted Image

2- Apollo as a politician, lawyer and President? Sigh, why was his character nerfed so badly?

And Galactica CAG and Pegasus Commander. Not bad for a reservist before the attack. I guess no one was satisfactorily fulfilled with each of his hats, not Jamie as an actor, not the writers, and not Lee as a character, so it always onward to wearing the next hat.

3- What happened to the romance between Apollo and Starbuck? They never truly got to be with each other, it just saddens me, especially the ending when she disappeared.

Call it an incestuous brother sister relationship. Well. I have heard this so many times I will give credence to it. Katee Sackhoff requested a boyfriend for her character. Whatever was planned for Apollo and Starbuck was a long term series arc thing that required time and patience to see to its fruition. Enter Samuel Anders. And just like Helo didn't get left on Caprica, ultimately Sam didn't get left on Caprica due to his popularity too. So blame her. public/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif

So on one hand, again, the series was creatively adaptive and came to embrace Sam. On the other hand, I do sort of buy it. Usually but not always, there is a window of opportunity to engage in a romance with someone. After a point there is too much history elapsed between Lee and Kara for them to be together that way - they are very close but a certain level of... "illusory ignorance" is necessary to initiate romantic relationships.

I dunno. What is the prevailing shipper perspective?

4- Why did Adama chose to be alone instead of stay with his son? Okay, I understand he wanted to be with Laura, but then she died. I wonder if he ever went back to see his son.

In one respect I have no freaking idea. Adama is all about family, this is his defining trait. On the other hand he is a pragmatic leader and knows there can never be any true succession if he sticks around. So he did a George Washington. One subtext of season four and the series in general is that everyone accrues baggage that takes its toll, and Adama has come to truly need Roslin on a personal level just to keep going as The Admiral. This is expressed again and again over many season four episodes. Losing a partner can be especially devastating to older people, they never fully recover.

5- What was the point in the 5 Cylons? They didn't seem to fulfill any purpose even at the end. All they did was "confirm" that Starbuck's ship pointed to Cylon Earth, and then Tyrol killed Tory, they didn't even get to restart the resurrection stuff.

They decided to do four Sleeper Cylon reveals at once for maximum drama. As opposed to four individual reveals over the course of a season as was the established tradition. Considering the fan response after season three I have to admit it was a success. I think it was far too late in the series to introduce new characters and have them be sleeper agents. You practically had to have four "different and special Cylons" drawn from the existing cast. Whatever happened, the last Cylon reveal had to be a biggie. And it's... Ellen?

6- Was anyone else disappointed by the "Opera House" when Gaius and Six finally bring Hera to the CIC? All that happened was that Gaius tried to convince Cavil to change his ways, but he ended up killing himself. It just seemed like a weak event compared to the dreams that Roslin, Six and Athena had- seemed to signify a cosmic event or something truly life-changing. I also thought that Gaius and Six would adopt Hera or something like that.

I think its a choice between connecting as many dots as you can and connecting dots well. Fans wanted answers. Blame Dean Stockwell for Cavil's demise. That was his idea. What a great observation. Yes, one of Head Six's prophecies was wrong. In terms of fanwank, you could say this is further corroborating evidence that BSG's God and It's messengers are neither omniscient or omnipotent. The gods do indeed help those who help themselves. Or maybe sabre toothed tigers ate Helo and Sharon after the final credits rolled.

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#3 Kracov

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:23 AM

Thanks. All of that makes sense. 4 seasons just isn't enough, was it because of money?

#4 jxf011

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:33 AM

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#5 jxf011

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:46 AM

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#6 Kracov

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 02:36 AM

No theater release because of the tiny 2 hours? Then he should go for a trilogy, but yeah money issues again.

I think i've seen Razor, if its the same one that was included in S4 Disc 1 (nothing else on the disc)

#7 JustSaying

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 10:50 PM

These are just some thoughts I have about the show.

2- Apollo as a politician, lawyer and President? Sigh, why was his character nerfed so badly?

In the movie Razor (and a couple of other scenes in the show), Lee said he never really thought about whether or not he wanted to be a pilot. It seemed like he didn't want to be in the military to begin with. As for being a lawyer, his grandfather Joseph was a lawyer. So he gets that from his father's side of the family. I do admit however that him becoming President was a stretch.

3- What happened to the romance between Apollo and Starbuck? They never truly got to be with each other, it just saddens me, especially the ending when she disappeared.

I think the romance was one-sided. Kara flirted with him but was in love with his brother. Lee, on the other hand, really had a crush on her.

4- Why did Adama chose to be alone instead of stay with his son? Okay, I understand he wanted to be with Laura, but then she died. I wonder if he ever went back to see his son.

As CAG, it might have been easier to report to the Pilot landing bay in case of a cylon attack. Whereas, Bill's quarters would be closer to the CIC room in case of an attack. However, when he was married and assigned on Pegasus, his quarters was closer to the CIC room on that ship. As for Earth, Lee said he wanted to travel/explore and Bill said he wanted to build a home.

5- What was the point in the 5 Cylons? They didn't seem to fulfill any purpose even at the end. All they did was "confirm" that Starbuck's ship pointed to Cylon Earth, and then Tyrol killed Tory, they didn't even get to restart the resurrection stuff.

The 5 cylons was the cause of the Cylon civil war. Half of them didn't want to know the final 5. In the end, their purpose helped unit the rebel cylons and the colonials. In the movie, BSG the Plan, it's revealed that the final 5 have a duplicate body on Cavil's bayship. So it's possible that Tory downloaded herself before she was killed. The one thing that was consistent about her was self preservation.

6- Was anyone else disappointed by the "Opera House" when Gaius and Six finally bring Hera to the CIC? All that happened was that Gaius tried to convince Cavil to change his ways, but he ended up killing himself. It just seemed like a weak event compared to the dreams that Roslin, Six and Athena had- seemed to signify a cosmic event or something truly life-changing. I also thought that Gaius and Six would adopt Hera or something like that.

By the end of the series, there was the Writers' Strike. So production of the show was postponed for several months. It's possible that the writers just ran out of ideas. Personally, I didn't mind the Opera House theme, but the lengthy speech Gaius gave at the end bothered me.


#8 jxf011

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 02:00 AM

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#9 Tangra

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 04:29 AM

It truly was an awesome series. I cried at least twice per episode, because the characters were done wonderfully. No other show has made me felt as much as BSG has. I have a lot of questions though:

1- Why was the amount of action/battles much lower in S3 and S4? I know that the Cylons started to try to be more peaceful, but still- BSG was supposed to be about Cylons battling humans, so it felt like they were trying to save money by keeping it as a space opera (which is good i guess, just could have been better)

2- Apollo as a politician, lawyer and President? Sigh, why was his character nerfed so badly?

3- What happened to the romance between Apollo and Starbuck? They never truly got to be with each other, it just saddens me, especially the ending when she disappeared.

4- Why did Adama chose to be alone instead of stay with his son? Okay, I understand he wanted to be with Laura, but then she died. I wonder if he ever went back to see his son.

5- What was the point in the 5 Cylons? They didn't seem to fulfill any purpose even at the end. All they did was "confirm" that Starbuck's ship pointed to Cylon Earth, and then Tyrol killed Tory, they didn't even get to restart the resurrection stuff.

6- Was anyone else disappointed by the "Opera House" when Gaius and Six finally bring Hera to the CIC? All that happened was that Gaius tried to convince Cavil to change his ways, but he ended up killing himself. It just seemed like a weak event compared to the dreams that Roslin, Six and Athena had- seemed to signify a cosmic event or something truly life-changing. I also thought that Gaius and Six would adopt Hera or something like that.


Welcome to the board :)

I know how you feel. Could add many more questions to those you asked. Like, for example, what was so special about Hera to justify the would-be-suicidal rescue mission of Galactica?

Unfortunately for people like me in the final stages of the show RDM felt like it is his artistic duty to sacrifice most of the story continuity, logic and common sense in favor of some spiritualistic and emotionally touching moments. Of coarse, in case you could be touched by events which make no sense when you think a bit about it.

Some comments about your list:

2. Apollo and his many talents.
I feel no sympathy that kind of best in everything characters. His girlfriend Kara was the same breed btw. IMO these two characters were overexposed and their capabilities pushed far beyond the credibility limits. I think the show would be better if they were a bit more ordinary people.

4. Adama not going back.
I read an article on the Internet stating the Daybreak 2 is the worst movie ending ever and i wholeheartedly support that opinion. But Adama staying on that rock is one of the few things in that episode that somehow makes sense to me. I mean, he and Roslin were great leaders with mission to try to keep their civilization alive and going. And keep the fleet together. Remember that "i am bringing my family back!" ? In the end there was nothing left to lead. Instead of staying together and helping each other, the surviving people were divided into small groups scattered around the globe. With no radio or any other form of communication. And with no means of transportation available whatsoever. In a situation like this running any kind of government and/or civilizational project is unthinkable. Providing this, i can understand why he chooses to stay by the Roslin's grave instead of going back and watching all what they both stood for quickly disintegrates and their civilization goes into oblivion.

But i will stop here, since my friend CylonRomeo gets nervous when i am bashing season 4 and especially Daybreak 2 :)

#10 Kracov

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 01:27 AM

Hmm I don't quite agree that if Adama going back would be "watching everything disintegrate". Adama didn't care too much for "civilization", specifically politics/government. He just wanted the human race to survive and prosper. Watching the population grow, and be with his son and Tigh and even watch Hera grow up would have made him happy I think. The other posters made sense- Laura's death was devastating, and he has nothing to lead anymore. Given enough time to heal, and books to burn through, i'm sure he would eventually have been reunited with at least his son.

#11 Tangra

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 07:04 AM

Hmm I don't quite agree that if Adama going back would be "watching everything disintegrate". Adama didn't care too much for "civilization", specifically politics/government. He just wanted the human race to survive and prosper. Watching the population grow, and be with his son and Tigh and even watch Hera grow up would have made him happy I think. The other posters made sense- Laura's death was devastating, and he has nothing to lead anymore. Given enough time to heal, and books to burn through, i'm sure he would eventually have been reunited with at least his son.


Well, in turn i have to disagree that mere physical survival would be satisfactory to Adama. For instance, i remember him rejecting the election results when he found out Roslin cheated. He knew what Roslin did served best their "lets just survive" cause, but still rejected it. This doesn't fit in the picture of a man not interested in politics, government and civilizational values.
I am surprised you mention prosperity. How exactly you imagine they would prosper being divided into small groups with no connection to each other and their technology level being downgraded to hunter-gatherers level - but without them having any of the surviving skills those hunter-gatherers had? I don't even mention the historical facts which tell us no civilization of any kind existed in the next 150 000 years, which means they quickly melted into the see of natives without living any trace in history.

#12 jxf011

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 10:46 AM

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#13 JustSaying

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 08:57 PM

With no Resurrection Hub, Tory dying in the finale was it for her, she wouldn't have woken up in that spare Tory body we saw at the beginning of The Plan. She was a tragic character, like so many on the show. Being a Cylon really went to her head though it's good they included that possible reaction. Tigh and Chief just couldn't accept it (just like the actors) and Anders was very "whatever, it's cool" about it. I kept wondering when Tory's killing Cally would crop back up ... I almost thought they forgot about it and then it hit, wrecking the whole deal with Cavil for resurrection and possibly keeping the cycle of conflict going.

Part of me wants to think that - Really! But when I saw that movie and how they revealed another copy of them, I was shocked. So that leads me to believe that Cavil has a lot more up his sleeve. Who knows? Cavil was always boxing up cylons.


#14 Kracov

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 05:52 PM

I just got done watching the Plan.  I remember in S4/4.5 they showed a flashback of Tigh being there for Ellen who was buried under rubble because of the Cylon attack, and died.  Yet in The Plan they show Ellen being rescued by Cavil and brought aboard one of the fleet ships.  How can this be, if Tigh was aboard Galactica when the Cylons attacked? 

We see Tigh in the resurrection tub- then i thought back to about 20 years ago when we see him with more hair and brown too. I'm assuming that the "Tigh as a Cylon" was a new concept for the end of S3 by the writers or RDM. Or was it the plan all along, because we also see Tyrol have suicidal dreams about him being a Cylon in S2.

How did S3 Leoben even remember his encounter with Starbuck in S2, if S2 Leoben died without a resurrection hub nearby? There was no device to retrieve his memories.

#15 CylonRomeo

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 01:31 AM

I have to reply now because my 'mirror' in the East has jumped in :)


1- Why was the amount of action/battles much lower in S3 and S4? I know that the Cylons started to try to be more peaceful, but still- BSG was supposed to be about Cylons battling humans, so it felt like they were trying to save money by keeping it as a space opera (which is good i guess, just could have been better)


That is true, and I felt like the whole "merging" element was part of that. Such as, the ONLY major battle in season 4.0 was in the nebula and sseemed to be by accident, AND spanned the end of S3 and beginning of S4. Then, the end of S4 there was no real battle, just the threat of one with D'Anna at the healm. Then, no battle in S4.5 except amongst the humans (until the very end). It was A LOT of character development and what I would call throw-away episodes. In fact, on the blu ray, there is one whole disc in S3 (the one where the last ep is Maelstrom) that could be thrown out and it wouldn't matter really.

2- Apollo as a politician, lawyer and President? Sigh, why was his character nerfed so badly?


I often wondered if Jamie Bamber didn't feel upstaged the whole time by Katee Sackoff because his character in the last 2 seasons was really just about placing him wherever he fit. His only real sole contribution to the show is ep "Black Market" and that episode is widely condemned as the first real throw-away episode in Galactica's progression. SOMEONE had to replace Roslin at the end. SOMEONE had to take center stage at Baltar's trial (one of the major characters) and create friction. You couldn't just have Romo Lampkin defending Baltar and it be just as straight up as that. So, throw in Lee with "personal conviction" and have him essentially attacking the president, and you get better drama. Sometimes, I didn't buy it but it was enough for suspension of disbelief. His role as politician was stupid IMO, it was ridiculous that suddenly he is taking lessons from Zarek and agitating Roslin on the quorum.

But I think mainly all of that was to transition him from a warrior into someone to "lead" the people in the end when we all know Roslin was going to bite it.

3- What happened to the romance between Apollo and Starbuck? They never truly got to be with each other, it just saddens me, especially the ending when she disappeared.


She was frakked. What else is there to say? They got down on New Caprica and then she married someone else hours later, then still slept with everyone - including Lee. I think a lot of people would have no respect for the show if in the end, Apollo and Starbuck walk off into the sunset of Earth. Too much cheese. And, she's a angel. How do you propel romance with that type of theme?

4- Why did Adama chose to be alone instead of stay with his son? Okay, I understand he wanted to be with Laura, but then she died. I wonder if he ever went back to see his son.


It was not clear what happened there. I like that actually.

5- What was the point in the 5 Cylons? They didn't seem to fulfill any purpose even at the end. All they did was "confirm" that Starbuck's ship pointed to Cylon Earth, and then Tyrol killed Tory, they didn't even get to restart the resurrection stuff.


Isn't there a whole page of threads on this in here? They fulfilled the role of helping to successfully merge humans and cylons by integrating them. Cavil tripped them up, but that was their whole intent by coming to the colonies. They made human versions of cylons with the intent that the human versions would be "compatible" with humans and then blend with them (as happened with Hera).

6- Was anyone else disappointed by the "Opera House" when Gaius and Six finally bring Hera to the CIC? All that happened was that Gaius tried to convince Cavil to change his ways, but he ended up killing himself. It just seemed like a weak event compared to the dreams that Roslin, Six and Athena had- seemed to signify a cosmic event or something truly life-changing. I also thought that Gaius and Six would adopt Hera or something like that.


YES. The first time I saw the literalized "Opera House" I was fairly shaken. It was so heavy-handed. I wish they would have left it as allegory. The final scene in the CIC had some really good things and some really bad things. I kind of felt like the show was trying to appease the "less thoughtful" in the audience who might be confused if they weren't walked through the story by the hand. It could have been more "gutsy" if they did it that way but I think they were trying to be faithful to the whole audience, not just those intelligent enough to discern without a teleprompter.

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#16 CylonRomeo

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 01:38 AM

I just got done watching the Plan. I remember in S4/4.5 they showed a flashback of Tigh being there for Ellen who was buried under rubble because of the Cylon attack, and died. Yet in The Plan they show Ellen being rescued by Cavil and brought aboard one of the fleet ships. How can this be, if Tigh was aboard Galactica when the Cylons attacked?


Ellen in the rubble was a flashback (a flashback had by of Saul) to the holocaust on Earth, not the one on the colonies. That's how he realized she was actually the 5th cylon, because he had a flash to their past life together before Cavil blocked their memories.

We see Tigh in the resurrection tub- then i thought back to about 20 years ago when we see him with more hair and brown too. I'm assuming that the "Tigh as a Cylon" was a new concept for the end of S3 by the writers or RDM. Or was it the plan all along, because we also see Tyrol have suicidal dreams about him being a Cylon in S2.


More mysteries await (the hair mystery). I believe they were planning on making Chief a cylon at the time of the suicidal dreams,,, but at that time, they had not yet developed or chosen the final 5 concept or who they would be. They certainly didn't plan that in S2 when Tigh With Hair is having flashbacks while Adama was shot.

How did S3 Leoben even remember his encounter with Starbuck in S2, if S2 Leoben died without a resurrection hub nearby? There was no device to retrieve his memories.


That was unclear. If you meant episode "Flesh and Bone" that was S1.

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#17 jxf011

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 09:56 PM

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#18 CylonRomeo

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 10:26 PM

TAnd why didn't the writers work hard to explain Starbuck's Maelstrom visions? Why was she drawn in? Where did she go? Who took her to Earth? How did she get a pristine Viper, with the clue back to Earth no less? How/why did she disappear in the finale? It's as if the writers felt uber-compelled to iron out the Opera House stuff but with Starbuck they said "meh? who cares." RDM likes somethings to be mysterious and unexplained but I think they went overboard with that and Starbuck.


I liked the treatment of the Starbuck character here.... that is the type of "let linger" mystery that is left somewhat to the imagination. Except, I think people who are insightful can see what is going on if they really try. More and more toward the end, the show was bringing in a hidden spiritual element ---- yet, was there all along in the form of Baltar's 6 and 6's Baltar (in their heads). IMO, the playing out of the Starbuck character does a good job of explaining A LOT of other unexplained things such as Laura's conversation with Elosha and the being in the form of Leoben in episode "Maelstrom".

I sort of wish the Opera House would have been left on that allegorical level. To me, the explanation is clear. A lot of people don't want to admit that's what actually happened, tho. That Starbuck was actually a "being" like Head Six and we saw the TRANSITION of Kara Thrace, human being, into Kara Thrace, spiritual entity. I look at it as, a being like Head Six has been around a lot longer than Kara who just died recently, so she knows what she's doing and what she is. Kara didn't know.

As for her disappearance in the end, I thought it was a perfect end for the statement they were trying to make about what had happened to her. Lee asks her what she is going to do or where she's going, she replies "I don't know".

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#19 Kracov

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 08:34 PM

What did the Cylons have that the humans didn't, that "God" wanted both species to have with Hera?

#20 mbozzo2008

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 09:43 PM

I remember seeing every episodes of the 2003 series as well as the pilot miniseries and the 2 movies based on that series. I missed the web episodes, but hoped that they will find their way onto DVD someday. B)




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